Meeting:IRC Support SIG 2009-03-05

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---Topic for #fedora-meeting is Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule Mar 05 09:28
---Topic for #fedora-meeting set by Sparks at Wed Mar 4 18:15:49 2009 Mar 05 09:28
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG Meeting - Init process. Mar 05 09:30
*Sonar_Guy is here Mar 05 09:30
*thomasj Mar 05 09:30
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*nirik waits a few for more folks to mosey in. Mar 05 09:30
*ivazquez|laptop shows up Mar 05 09:31
Sonar_Guy nirik, here is the link for what the weekly archives will look like http://theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly-archive/fedora-weekly-20090227.html Mar 05 09:31
nirik cool. Mar 05 09:31
*zcat ---=---=-----==--- Mar 05 09:32
nirik ok, I guess we can go ahead and get started then... I have a few items on the agenda today. Mar 05 09:32
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG Meeting - Classes Mar 05 09:32
Sonar_Guy the date will be whatever the thursday is so this weeks will be http://theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly-archive/fedora-weekly-20090305.html once it runs Mar 05 09:32
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nirik classes are meeting this weekend over in #fedora-classroom. Mar 05 09:32
nirik I might start announcing in channel... let me know if it gets anoying and I can make it less often. Mar 05 09:33
nirik there are still some slots open for last minute classes if anyone decides they can teach something from the wishlist. Mar 05 09:33
nirik https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom is the page Mar 05 09:33
stickster I am going to find something for the 2045 UTC class on Saturday Mar 05 09:34
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stickster s/something/something to teach/ Mar 05 09:34
nirik stickster: excellent! Mar 05 09:34
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nirik anyone have anything futher on classes, or shall I move on? Mar 05 09:34
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG Meeting - Feedback Mar 05 09:35
Sonar_Guy nirik, you want stats from the classroom channel? Mar 05 09:35
nirik Sonar_Guy: not sure it would be too usefull, but if you want to feel free. Mar 05 09:35
Sonar_Guy ok Mar 05 09:35
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nirik So, next topic: I was pointed at some feedback from someone who is a new linux user and new to fedora. They had some interesting things to say that I think we can learn from. Mar 05 09:36
*kanarip is here Mar 05 09:36
nirik First of all, they were correctly pointed to a link to solve the question/issue they were having, so thats good. Mar 05 09:36
nirik But they noted that there is very little sense of community from #fedora. They just briskly were pointed to the link and thats it. Mar 05 09:37
nirik I think we could for not much of our effort help out on that front. Mar 05 09:37
nirik take a look at How to respond to users on: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC_helpers_code_of_conduct Mar 05 09:38
*nirik notes stickster wrote up those for us. ;) Mar 05 09:38
stickster I wanted to point out here that I think things in #fedora are immeasurably improved compared to, say, 12 months ago Mar 05 09:39
Khaytsus nirik: So instead of just pointing them to the link and that's then end of it, some wording around it.. like "This link can probably help, it has helped others" then a link for example? Mar 05 09:39
nirik So, I think we could try and all be more polite... welcome people when they say they are new, say your welcome when they say thanks, etc. Mar 05 09:39
zcat Data strives to be more human. Mar 05 09:39
stickster It's more of an engagement perspective -- link, "This has helped others," and further, "If it doesn't help or you get stuck, come back and let us know" Mar 05 09:39
*inode0 seconds stickster's observation Mar 05 09:39
nirik Khaytsus: yeah. I think thats all implied to us, but to someone new, they have no idea. Mar 05 09:39
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nirik so, mentioning that if they get stuck on specific parts to let us know might help them know its ok to ask. Mar 05 09:40
Khaytsus nirik: Yep, I agree. And if you're *really* new (which, again, is hard for us to 'be' these days) even our howtos might not be readable. Mar 05 09:40
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*inode0 observes in #rhel we now see virtually no one coming to us with hurt feelings from #fedora - so good job Mar 05 09:40
vwbusguy should we assume that are at the aptitude of reading the release notes Mar 05 09:41
nirik and especially since many of our links are just aliases/shortcuts, it could be easy to just add those things once. Mar 05 09:41
vwbusguy or is that asking too much? Mar 05 09:41
vwbusguy the release notes are pretty explanatory and n00b friendly Mar 05 09:41
nirik well, we can assume they can get on irc at least. ;) Mar 05 09:41
Khaytsus nirik: So is it at least more personal to add such comments to our scripts? ;-) Mar 05 09:41
stickster vwbusguy: Personally, I think you can assume they're *capable* of it, not that they *have* :-) Mar 05 09:41
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nirik personally impersonal. ;) But I think it would help some new folks know that this is a community and we are trying to help, not a faqbot channel where they get a link and thats it. Mar 05 09:42
stickster  :-) Mar 05 09:42
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stickster I think something else we can all recognize is when we or someone we know is getting frustrated or tired when helping Mar 05 09:43
nirik so, does that make sense? any objections? Mar 05 09:43
Khaytsus nirik: Yep, this is true. I'll work on it on my own scripts, I'm sure others will do similar. Mar 05 09:43
nirik yes, that was the second point I was going to bring up... the person above got their link, but then they saw some other user get berated/called stupid/etc... and that made them wonder also about the community Mar 05 09:44
nirik we really should try and avoid any kind of personal attacks and quash them when we see them from others... I know it's not possible to get them all Mar 05 09:45
nirik and if you are helping and someone is pushing your buttons to the point where you are about to call them stupid or attack them, excuse yourself and come back later. Mar 05 09:46
stickster nirik: Sorry, didn't mean to jump the shark :-) Mar 05 09:46
nirik no worries. ;) Mar 05 09:46
*Khaytsus hides Mar 05 09:46
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nirik anyhow, thats a old discussion. It's hard to get everyone to stop doing that. Especially when a user frustrates them. Mar 05 09:46
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nirik but I would ask everyone to try. Mar 05 09:46
Khaytsus nirik: Or the same user... daily.... same questions.. Mar 05 09:47
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Khaytsus But yep, we should all try. Mar 05 09:47
Khaytsus I'm probably more guilty than most :/ Mar 05 09:47
nirik or the f11a running user who is told to go to f10 for a stable release then comes back 10 seconds later saying they are now running f10. ;) Mar 05 09:47
vwbusguy some users are especially frustrating. I think nirik's right that it's best to take a break though. Mar 05 09:47
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nirik instead of 'frustrated -> personal attack -> walk away' we should all 'frustrated -> walk away' and avoid the attack. Mar 05 09:48
stickster Sometimes it's also OK to say something like "I'm sorry I can't help you further," and move on, or ask another helper/op to assist Mar 05 09:48
stickster Yeah, what nirik said. Mar 05 09:48
zcat you have stick it in your...ctrl-a backspace Mar 05 09:49
stickster IRC is such a tricky beast -- very little of the humanizing context of a face to face contact. Mar 05 09:49
vwbusguy lol Mar 05 09:49
*nirik has done that...typed out a line, then realized it wasn't constructive, and deleted it. Mar 05 09:49
Khaytsus zcat: I've actually done that :( except I'm a ^u kinda guy ;-) Mar 05 09:49
vwbusguy stickster, heh, that's why I like it, I get enough of that from $dayjob Mar 05 09:49
zcat Khaytsus, not readline in xchat though Mar 05 09:50
Khaytsus zcat: I used that once. Mar 05 09:50
nirik stickster: anything else we should go over here? Mar 05 09:50
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stickster The Internet is very good at turning people into real jerks by virtue of anonymity. Because we represent something other than ourselves -- Fedora -- we have to go to greater lengths to be positive Mar 05 09:50
vwbusguy but yeah, I especially feel for the first time user who feels totally lost Mar 05 09:50
nirik if anyone can think of anything to add to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC_helpers_code_of_conduct ? Mar 05 09:50
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Khaytsus Hmmmm... Speaking of personalizing things, nirik, what do you think about a Solved page with some info for on our irc ops that might let people know more than a nick? Mar 05 09:51
stickster nirik: Nothing else here, just wanted to explain myself. The opening and closing point I wanted to make was that I think we're doing much better on this front, and just to reiterate that it's a daily initiative Mar 05 09:51
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Khaytsus We can take it offline to #fedora-ops, just mentioning it here Mar 05 09:51
vwbusguy "If you find yourself losing patience, excuse yourself by apologizing and saying you have to attend to something else. It's OK to step away for a few minutes until you feel you're ready to help again. Better that the channel go understaffed for that time than for the general atmosphere to decline. " Mar 05 09:51
vwbusguy that's a good summary Mar 05 09:52
Khaytsus vwbusguy: Ah, the electronic version of crumpling paper and hanging up Mar 05 09:52
vwbusguy Khaytsus, which is better than throwing the paper at customer first Mar 05 09:52
nirik Khaytsus: yeah, we could do something like that... or a link to wiki pages or home pages or something... Mar 05 09:52
rjune_ Khaytsus, more like the electronic version of putting the customer back into the queue Mar 05 09:52
stickster Can we put something like that on the wiki? A bit of personal info? Mar 05 09:52
kanarip isn't that what the personal wiki page is for, too? Mar 05 09:53
stickster kanarip: True, true -- and there's always transcludes to make it all glue together somewhere. Mar 05 09:53
kanarip seriously, add a short bio there, things you do within fedora, the lot Mar 05 09:53
Khaytsus stickster: I'm thinking something simple like a picture (up to the op), some very quick background, nothing real personal, just a few lines of background, knowldge, some statement about why they are a Fedora op Mar 05 09:53
nirik we could even link it to the stats. ;) Mar 05 09:53
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stickster Khaytsus: Sure, that sounds perfect Mar 05 09:54
Khaytsus So yeah, like stickster says, perhaps we just need to fill out such things and then glue it together. Possible to summarize it into a single page, rather than links to each? Mar 05 09:54
vwbusguy and link to our user wiki pages :-) Mar 05 09:54
stickster http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/About_the_IRC_staff Mar 05 09:54
zcat Khaytsus, everybody's "hackergotchi" headshot and a oneliner quote, all squished on one page? Mar 05 09:54
Khaytsus zcat: yeah, something like that.. i don't have a gotchi, but I could make one in 30s ;-) Mar 05 09:55
vwbusguy blog links? Mar 05 09:55
Khaytsus zcat: Perhaps more than one line, but dunno Mar 05 09:55
kanarip add a "what the other ops have to say about $fedora-op" kinda interview style ;-) Mar 05 09:55
Khaytsus vwbusguy: Do you want #fedora reading your cable company rants? :D Mar 05 09:55
vwbusguy that was one post, haha Mar 05 09:55
nirik I think this could be a good idea... lots of ways we could go on it. Mar 05 09:55
Khaytsus Yep, we can probably discuss it another time in more detail Mar 05 09:56
nirik But short summary: be more polite, greet people who are new, change links to note that we will be happy to help them if they get stuck, take a break if someone frustrates you, and try and quash personal attacks. Mar 05 09:56
stickster Khaytsus: +1 Mar 05 09:56
*stickster puts note at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/About_the_IRC_staff Mar 05 09:57
*vwbusguy bookmarks it Mar 05 09:57
Khaytsus  :) Mar 05 09:57
vwbusguy If I get a chance today I'll start a layout for it Mar 05 09:57
nirik ok, anything more on this topic we should go over? Mar 05 09:57
vwbusguy and add a link to it from Start page Mar 05 09:57
thomasj omg Mar 05 09:58
*nirik will move on in a few Mar 05 09:58
thomasj please Mar 05 09:59
thomasj move on :D Mar 05 09:59
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG Meeting - Stats Mar 05 09:59
nirik so Sonar_Guy has been running weekly stats for us. Mar 05 09:59
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nirik http://theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html Mar 05 10:00
nirik so, this tells us who was most active in channel over the last week. Mar 05 10:00
ivazquez|laptop By that measure, I shouldn't even be here :P Mar 05 10:01
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nirik no, thats nothing about quality. :) Mar 05 10:01
nirik it also shows us top links in the channel and number of kicks/bans Mar 05 10:01
kanarip good, because i'm not that active Mar 05 10:01
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nirik so, we are pretty low on kicks (only the paste floods) and only 1 user I think this week... pretty amazing, but I think making the channel a better place made many of the users we had to kick move on. Mar 05 10:03
vwbusguy my random quotes never make sense, haha Mar 05 10:03
vwbusguy I always get pre-coffee quotes Mar 05 10:03
nirik pulseaudio seems to still be a hot topic. Mar 05 10:03
nirik the libgxim bug and update was big too. Mar 05 10:03
zcat and looks i got caught there being !nice. "set XanThaOs --quiet --OCD=0" Mar 05 10:04
Khaytsus zcat: sweet Mar 05 10:04
fenrus02 speaking of PA, if you find something that isnt listed on the wiki page - please let me know and i'll fix it. Mar 05 10:04
Khaytsus I mean.. bad! Mar 05 10:04
nirik so, I think these are good to go over... and if we want anything more added, talk to Sonar_Guy Mar 05 10:04
Khaytsus fenrus02: Did you ever add anything specific to restarting Pulse? Might ponder that one if not. Mar 05 10:05
nirik fenrus02: oh, would you mind if I run the link by the pulseaudio author? note that he is... blunt, so he might rant at you if something is not exactly right. Mar 05 10:05
fenrus02 libgxim fix has been pushed already, so it should quiet down. evdev is next in line afaict Mar 05 10:05
fenrus02 nirik, Please do! Mar 05 10:05
nirik ok, will mention it to him next time I see him on irc. Mar 05 10:05
nirik anything else on stats? Mar 05 10:06
fenrus02 nirik, I just compiled a list of random trash i found on the intarwebz ... Mar 05 10:06
Khaytsus nirik: Remind him that fenrus02 didn't just make the stuff up, they are responses to things that have happened ;-) Mar 05 10:06
fenrus02 Khaytsus, i think it's there Mar 05 10:06
nirik ok, will move on in a sec. Mar 05 10:06
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG Meeting - Contact Mar 05 10:07
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nirik so fenrus02 mentioned a good idea... we don't have any feedback/contact right now thats at all official. Mar 05 10:07
nirik what would folks think of setting up a alias to go to me or whoever wants it to get feedback via email? Mar 05 10:07
nirik irc-support@fedoraproject.org or something. Mar 05 10:07
fenrus02 just be careful that it does not turn into a helpline. Mar 05 10:08
nirik yeah, agreed. Any help requests should get directed to the irc channel, the forums or the fedora-list. Mar 05 10:08
kanarip why not, it's about time we get rid of fedora-list@redhat.com ;-) Mar 05 10:08
stickster nirik: Is there an alias for irc ops group in FAS? Mar 05 10:08
kanarip there is Mar 05 10:09
stickster Or am I on a totally different wavelength from what you want? Mar 05 10:09
nirik stickster: well, there is the 'irc_support_operators-members@fedoraproject.org' Mar 05 10:09
nirik (i think thats the group) Mar 05 10:09
stickster Rolls right off the tongue, doesn't it? Mar 05 10:09
kanarip .fasinfo kanarip Mar 05 10:09
zodbot kanarip: User: kanarip, Name: Jeroen van Meeuwen, email: kanarip@kanarip.com, Creation: 2006-05-29, IRC Nick: kanarip, Timezone: Europe/Amsterdam, Locale: en, Extension: 5100680, GPG key ID: 9342BF08 Mar 05 10:09
zodbot kanarip: Approved Groups: cla_done fedorabugs packager docs sysadmin ambassadors gitrevisor cvsl10n cla_fedora sysadmin-test gitwevisor sysadmin-noc gitpyjigdo gitspin-kickstarts provenpackager gitcsi gitgenome gitcourses gitpublican-genome gitlogrotate-syslog irc-support-operators fedora-emea-board gitfedora-devshell Mar 05 10:09
zodbot kanarip: Unapproved Groups: gitlivecd gitanaconda Mar 05 10:09
kanarip irc-support-operators-members@fedoraproject.org, ergo Mar 05 10:09
nirik but that would spam all the ops... Mar 05 10:09
nirik I was thinking more a alias like the webmaster one for irc support kudos and complaints. Mar 05 10:10
stickster yup, true... so I'm not sure I suggested the right thing. Mar 05 10:10
thomasj no problem with that spam Mar 05 10:10
vwbusguy I wouldn't mind if all ops had access to comments Mar 05 10:10
nirik we can do that, but just saying it might generate a lot of email for folks... Mar 05 10:11
vwbusguy either via email or if we could dump emails somewhere Mar 05 10:11
vwbusguy like a private mailing list with a searchabel archive ? Mar 05 10:11
vwbusguy anyone can email but not an end user support list Mar 05 10:11
nirik yeah, but we need to make sure it doesn't require subscribing. Mar 05 10:11
kanarip nirik, afaik the alias is public already... it's just not being advertised anywhere Mar 05 10:12
nirik so someone would need to manage the spam. ;) Mar 05 10:12
vwbusguy you can set that up with mailman Mar 05 10:12
fenrus02 webform titled something like "irc suggestion box" ? Mar 05 10:12
vwbusguy nirik, yeah that's true. Someone would have to moderate it Mar 05 10:12
nirik kanarip: sure. I don't get too much spam that I know of from 'cla_done-members' either I guess. Mar 05 10:12
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nirik what I would like to see: a easy way or ways for people to provide feedback... email/webform/irc whatever. Mar 05 10:13
nirik we don't have to decide anything now, we can ponder on it over the next week and come up with ideas. Mar 05 10:13
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---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG Meeting - Open Floor Mar 05 10:14
nirik anything further anyone has on any topic? Mar 05 10:14
*nirik will close out the meeting in a few if no one has any further items. Mar 05 10:16
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nirik ok, thanks for coming everyone. Keep up the great work! Mar 05 10:18
---nirik has changed the topic to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule Mar 05 10:18
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