QA/Meetings/20130325

Attendees

• adamw (97)
• j_dulaney (41)
• Viking-Ice (22)
• kparal (20)
• halfline (17)
• tflink (10)
• jreznik (10)
• zodbot (5)
• rdieter (3)
• spoore (1)
• nirik (1)
• brunowolff (1)
• jskladan (1)
• mkrizek (1)
• pwhalen (1)
• jwb (1)
• pschindl (1)

Agenda

• Previous meeting follow-up
• Fedora 19 Alpha status
• Test Days
• Open floor

Previous meeting follow-up

• adamw to work with developers on getting F19 images to bootable state - this was done: TC1 is bootable
• adamw to work out a fallback plan with desktop team if we cannot get working images by Wednesday - this was done: Test Day went ahead with F19 images

Fedora 19 Alpha status

• Bug #923951 is a major development/testing roadblock
• TC1 DVD install fails on dependency issues, so we need a TC2 soon without those
• We need to ensure we do all the tests that don't require network install at least, on TC2

Test Days

• 2013-03-21 GNOME Test Day went ahead with working F19-based images, attendance was better than 3.4 and 3.6 but still below where it could be: try to improve outside publicity for future events
• kparal suggests that the scope of the GNOME Test Day has gotten wider than a single day can really cover and suggests splitting future events into multiple days
• kparal and martix will look after System Certificates Test Day planning

Open floor

• tflink still working on getting the blocker proposal webapp into production, it's on staging now but still a couple of bugs to fix

Action items

• adamw to request a TC2 as soon as it's clear we can compose one without critical dep issues
• kparal to talk to martix and ensure Test_Day:2013-03-28_System_Certificates will be in shape and ready to go ahead for Thursday, or delay the event

IRC Log

adamw	#startmeeting Fedora QA meeting	15:00
zodbot	Meeting started Mon Mar 25 15:00:06 2013 UTC. The chair is adamw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.	15:00
zodbot	Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.	15:00
adamw	#meetingname fedora-qa	15:00
zodbot	The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'	15:00
adamw	#topic roll call	15:00
* kparal wheeee		15:00
adamw	morning folks, who's around?	15:00
* tflink is here		15:00
* mkrizek is here		15:00
* j_dulaney waves		15:00
* nirik is lurking around		15:01
* spoore is lurking		15:01
* pschindl is here		15:01
jwb	i am present if needed. i hope to not be needed.	15:01
j_dulaney	.moar "kernel bugs" jwb	15:01
zodbot	here jwb, have some more kernel bugs	15:01
adamw	thankw jwb	15:02
adamw	i don't think we have any particular fires in the kernel right now? anyhow.	15:02
* jskladan lurks		15:02
* pwhalen also lurks		15:02
adamw	#topic Previous meeting follow-up	15:04
adamw	alrightly	15:04
adamw	"adamw to work with developers on getting F19 images to bootable state" - well...they boot!	15:04
adamw	shipit	15:04
j_dulaney	Heh	15:04
tflink	wfm	15:04
adamw	#info adamw to work with developers on getting F19 images to bootable state - this was done...TC1 boots, at least	15:07
adamw	"adamw to work out a fallback plan with desktop team if we cannot get working images by Wednesday" - we got f19 images, in the end	15:07
adamw	#info adamw to work out a fallback plan with desktop team if we cannot get working images by Wednesday - F19 images were used for the Test Day	15:07
adamw	anything else from last week?	15:08
tflink	blocker tracking app? that might be more open floor, though	15:09
adamw	yeah	15:09
adamw	so let's hit up the biggy	15:09
adamw	#topic Fedora 19 Alpha status	15:09
j_dulaney	live desktop works after dding to USB	15:10
* j_dulaney was able to get into gnome shell, fire up Firefox, hop online, etc		15:10
adamw	yeah, me too.	15:10
j_dulaney	Install failed, however	15:10
adamw	works fine for me.	15:11
j_dulaney	Of course, what I was trying to do is a Beta requirement, not Alpha	15:11
adamw	so looking at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_19_Alpha_TC1_Install and http://qa.fedoraproject.org/blockerbugs/milestone/19/alpha/buglist , we obviously have various problems	15:11
adamw	satellit seems to be hitting stuff i'm not seeing, but he didn't link his feedback to bugs...	15:11
* j_dulaney also seems to have hit something you didn't		15:11
adamw	how did install fail for you?	15:13
j_dulaney	Custom partitioning	15:13
adamw	oh right.	15:14
j_dulaney	When I clicked on the Custom Parition button, the dialog closed, but Anaconda would not allow me to continue from there	15:14
adamw	tflink: did we want to do blocker review after the meeting btw?	15:14
j_dulaney	But, that's a beta blocker	15:14
kparal	adamw: I don't see it announced	15:15
tflink	adamw: do you think we need it before wednesday since we're not in freeze yet?	15:16
* j_dulaney can see how it may be useful to knock out a few		15:17
adamw	tflink: hm, good point	15:17
adamw	okay, so we have various potential and actual blockers	15:17
adamw	but the real big roadblock is https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=923951 , which is killing netinstall and bcl is pretty stuck on it	15:17
adamw	#info https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=923951 is a major development/testing roadblock	15:19
* jreznik is late today, sorry, pto :)		15:19
j_dulaney	BTW, not a show stopper, but the current F19 kernel is eating some major cycles and ram	15:19
j_dulaney	3/4 GB ram	15:19
kparal	j_dulaney: it's a debug kernel	15:19
adamw	so we might want to try and direct some high-level resources at that one; we also should make sure we test around it	15:19
adamw	j_dulaney: it's a debug kernel. try 'slub_debug=-' parameter.	15:19
j_dulaney	Roger	15:19
kparal	adamw: what does it do?	15:19
* j_dulaney also noticed that f19 yum is not always showing progress		15:20
j_dulaney	Especially on downloads	15:20
adamw	kparal: breaks net install entirely	15:21
kparal	adamw: no, I mean slub_debug=-	15:22
* kparal googles		15:22
adamw	i haven't tried tc1 DVD install yet; can someone report if it's viable, or does it get eaten by dependency problems?	15:22
brunowolff	Turns off slub debugging.	15:22
adamw	kparal: oh, disables a specific subset of debugging options which appear to be responsible for most of the slowdown in debug kernels, for most people	15:22
j_dulaney	adamw: It gets eaten alive	15:23
kparal	sounds great, I'll add it to our wiki	15:23
adamw	j_dulaney: ah. so, ideally we need to do a tc2 soon, with no dep problems if possible	15:23
j_dulaney	Indeed	15:23
adamw	#info TC1 DVD install fails on dependency issues, so we need a TC2 soon without those	15:23
adamw	any other thoughts on f19/tc1?	15:25
j_dulaney	Can tc2 be slightly less broken?	15:26
adamw	anyone hitting any big issues that haven't been reported as bugs? if so report them!	15:26
adamw	j_dulaney: well that would be nice, certainly...:)	15:26
adamw	#action adamw to request a TC2 as soon as it's clear we can compose one without critical dep issues	15:29
adamw	#info we need to ensure we do all the tests that don't require network install at least, on TC2	15:29
adamw	this is the 'don't just give up when we hit a showstopper' thing - let's make sure we get through all the validation tests on the DVD / live images even when we know netinst is busted	15:30
adamw	that way we don't get surprised by something else	15:30
tflink	adamw: that would never happen (the getting surprised by something else part) :-D	15:30
adamw	=)	15:30
adamw	#topic Test Days	15:31
adamw	doesn't look like martix is around	15:31
adamw	brno guys?	15:31
kparal	he's not	15:31
adamw	ok	15:32
adamw	I can say that we managed to get the GNOME Test Day to fire, and even had a decently-working live image, but attendance was thinner than i was expecting	15:32
adamw	18 people filing results, inc. a lot of RHers	15:32
adamw	i think we didn't get enough outside publicity done	15:32
adamw	also partly my fault for not getting the test images up fast enough	15:33
adamw	#info GNOME 3.8 Test Day went ahead with working F19-based images, but attendance was thin: insufficient publicity?	15:33
* j_dulaney had school in the way		15:33
* j_dulaney had a recital that night		15:33
adamw	j_dulaney: not blaming the attendees :) individuals can always be busy, but looked at overall, IIRC we had like 50+ at the last gnome/kde test days	15:34
kparal	actually I think the scope was too large and it put some people off	15:34
* jreznik thinks it's a problem of a too early desktop TDs but I understand why Martix scheduled them so early (upstream releases)		15:34
kparal	and of course, yes, it was too early - everything is too broken	15:34
adamw	hm, no, i must be remembering an older one	15:35
adamw	attendance was somewhat up on 3.6 and 3.4 in fact	15:35
adamw	#undo	15:35
zodbot	Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x2a4940d0>	15:35
adamw	#info GNOME 3.8 Test Day went ahead with working F19-based images, attendance was better than 3.4 and 3.6 but still below where it could be: try to improve outside publicity for future events	15:35
adamw	comparing https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2012-03-15_Gnome_Shell_and_Extensions and https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2012-11-08_GNOME_3.6	15:35
kparal	the first one was much more focused	15:36
adamw	kparal: yeah, it has spread out a little	15:36
adamw	partly just because G3 actually has applications now :)	15:36
adamw	#info kparal suggests that the scope of the GNOME Test Day has gotten wider than a single day can really cover, suggests splitting future events into multiple days	15:37
* kparal nods		15:37
j_dulaney	+1	15:37
adamw	this week's test day is https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2013-03-28_System_Certificates - shared system certificates	15:39
adamw	the idea being we just have one database of trusted ssl/tls certs, not, like, 50. seems a good plan.	15:39
adamw	the test day page still looks very template-y	15:39
adamw	kparal: if I #action martix to talk to the organizers and make sure they're on track or delay the event, can you pass that on?	15:40
kparal	adamw: I guess martix is one of the organizers, so you can #action me to talk to him	15:40
adamw	sounds good	15:40
* Viking-Ice wonders if we just change the meeting time to 15:00 utc		15:41
adamw	#action kparal to talk to martix and ensure https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2013-03-28_System_Certificates will be in shape and ready to go ahead for Thursday, or delay the event	15:41
adamw	Viking-Ice: my head says 'hell, no'	15:41
adamw	:P	15:41
kparal	Viking-Ice: two weeks ago	15:41
Viking-Ice	ok	15:42
kparal	as for upcoming test day, I already talked to alich and I'll try to create a livecd for them tomorrow	15:42
Viking-Ice	well any *DE testing should not be done until after alpha	15:43
adamw	Viking-Ice: the problem is that we're off-cycle with the DEs now	15:43
Viking-Ice	which could explain bad attendance	15:43
adamw	Viking-Ice: we had to schedule them both early or else they'd already have been released	15:43
Viking-Ice	adamw, sorry not following how that has anything to do with us ( as in upstream relese cycle )	15:44
jreznik	Viking-Ice: I talked to Martix and he was forced by upstreams to schedule it in this way	15:44
Viking-Ice	we dont have and should not tie our test days to their release schedule	15:44
jreznik	Viking-Ice: there's bigger chance to get a feedback and fixes in upstream...	15:44
adamw	Viking-Ice: it's harder to get stuff fixed after the upstream final release	15:45
jreznik	but still I think it was too early and it hit as more than upstream final releases (as we still have time for dot ones)	15:45
Viking-Ice	history has taught us never to schedule DE test until after alpha regardless of upstream schedule	15:45
adamw	that's an assertion, not an argument.	15:45
Viking-Ice	well it's a bigger problem if bugs that get filed during out development cycle wont get fixed because it does not fit upstream schedule	15:46
adamw	that's not what we said, exactly.	15:46
Viking-Ice	with regards to Gnome testing given recent thread they dont even bother with our bugs anyway	15:46
Viking-Ice	( unless they get filed upstream )	15:47
jreznik	so yep, for the next time I'd prefer no fix in upstreams (actually it was probably too late for GNOME too) and do the desktops tests with something more stable - as we want more users on TDs... for more advanced stuff, we can expect people will be able to workaround problems	15:47
jreznik	but for both KDE and GNOME TD I heard a lot of complaints - I couldn't get it ready, so I gave it	15:47
jreznik	Viking-Ice: well, this time I think they responded quite well in TD ("our" upstream devs) - so if they are changing theirs attitude - great	15:48
adamw	desktop's team always been strongly involved with the test days.	15:48
adamw	viking is referring to a thread on the desktop ML.	15:49
Viking-Ice	yup which clearly shows their attitude against rh bz	15:49
kparal	what's the thread name?	15:49
adamw	buried ion https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/desktop/2013-March/007895.html	15:49
kparal	personally I'm not sure why even RH employees refuse to follow their packages in RHBZ	15:50
kparal	but it's not the best approach	15:50
Viking-Ice	well I think this is only limited to RH Gnome developers not outside that group	15:50
kparal	yes, I'm referring to the GNOME TD	15:51
jreznik	adamw: wow, that's a small logo...	15:51
adamw	oh god	15:51
adamw	MOVING ON	15:51
adamw	:P	15:51
Viking-Ice	yeah not need to drag into this meeting how the Gnome devs are systematically killing the fedora brand	15:52
Viking-Ice	so let's move on	15:52
* kparal moves on		15:52
j_dulaney	Yeah, GDM sucks in that way	15:53
j_dulaney	But	15:53
j_dulaney	lightdm doesn't even show the logo, if I recall	15:53
adamw	#topic Open floor	15:54
rdieter	j_dulaney: yes it does	15:54
rdieter	(or should, if not, it's a bug)	15:54
j_dulaney	Hmm	15:54
adamw	so what do we have besides toxic arguments? :)	15:54
Viking-Ice	so is the new keyboard being displayed *always* in GDM considered a bug or a feature ?	15:54
* jreznik waits for lightdm default one for KDE and all that QML beaty :)		15:54
Viking-Ice	lightdm that's canonical stuff right?	15:54
rdieter	Viking-Ice: yeah	15:55
tflink	still working to get the blocker bug tracker into production	15:55
tflink	into staging now, not quite working but should get that figured out today hopefully	15:55
tflink	there will be a sever name change at some point but hopefully, that change will be transparent to users	15:56
j_dulaney	tflink: Is it publically facing?	15:56
adamw	Viking-Ice: i'm guessing 'feature' - this is commonly used on MMOs as a security measure	15:56
j_dulaney	tflink: As in, Linky?	15:56
tflink	j_dulaney: the staging instance? yes	15:56
adamw	Viking-Ice: the idea is that you can type your password partly using the keys and partly using the real keyboard	15:56
adamw	in case someone's logging keypresses	15:57
adamw	but imbw :)	15:57
tflink	it isn't working ATM, though and I'd rather not have the extra hits until it's setup properly	15:57
j_dulaney	Roger	15:57
j_dulaney	BUT	15:57
adamw	#info tflink still working on getting the blocker proposal webapp into production, it's on staging now but still a couple of bugs to fix	15:57
j_dulaney	now would be the time to try to make it explode, rather than in the middle of the release cycle	15:58
* j_dulaney just had a mental image of Chuck Norris busting out of a RH datacenter		15:58
Viking-Ice	adamw, really all it seems to do is ruin the user experience in GDM I personally thought it was table thingie	15:58
halfline	no the keyboard isn't supposed to be there by default	15:59
adamw	oh, so i guess i'm wrong :)	15:59
halfline	just a bug in g-s-d	15:59
adamw	halfline: feel free to use my explanation, though. CC license!	15:59
halfline	fixed in 3.7.92 i think	15:59
Viking-Ice	halfline, any reason the session chooser is there as opposed to somewhere in system settings ?	16:01
adamw	because you...want to choose a session when you log in?	16:01
halfline	an argument could be made for putting it in system settings	16:02
halfline	we do for locale	16:02
* j_dulaney is glad it isn't		16:02
halfline	not sure if it's a good idea or not	16:02
j_dulaney	Sometimes, I break a DE, but don't want to fix it right away	16:02
Viking-Ice	adamw, ? I would think they always would want users to use new gnome as first experience but have to manually configure it to the old mode ( which the natural place for that would be system settings )	16:02
adamw	Viking-Ice: oh, you mean specifically for classic mode? right.	16:03
* j_dulaney had gnome broken the entire time f18 was on his laptop		16:03
Viking-Ice	adamw, yeah	16:03
adamw	welp, anyway	16:03
halfline	it sort of makes sense	16:03
j_dulaney	s/laptop/x86 laptop	16:03
adamw	do we have any other *QA-related topics*? :)	16:03
halfline	i mean we used to have "fallback" mode in system settings	16:03
Viking-Ice	it's my experience any drop down menu/options in gdm has just confused users	16:03
halfline	also the session list is really ugly	16:04
adamw	halfline: right, i know where viking is coming from now.	16:04
* j_dulaney doesn't mind ugly if it means easy to find		16:04
Viking-Ice	everything is easy to find once you have explain users where to find them ;)	16:05
halfline	i can see both sides of the argument	16:05
halfline	probably worth talking to aday/mccann about	16:05
halfline	could also integrate with the talked about "Reboot into Windows" thing or whatever	16:07
j_dulaney	Ew	16:07
halfline	that we're going to have to do for EFI systems	16:07
j_dulaney	halfline: I hope that doesn't show up if you don't have Wincrap installed	16:08
halfline	yea that would be a bug	16:08
halfline	if it did	16:08
halfline	of course the feature isn't implemented yet	16:08
adamw	OK, GNOME design discussion to...wherever the appropriate channel for that is	16:09
j_dulaney	Feature I'll never use	16:09
halfline	another thing we should do is support login screen extensions, so people who want quick access to change their locale (or session if we end up moving that) can	16:09
adamw	thanks for coming, everyone	16:09
adamw	#endmeeting	16:09

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