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< QA‎ | Meetings


  • adamw (139)
  • tflink (90)
  • Viking-Ice (44)
  • jreznik (12)
  • roshi (11)
  • satellit_e (9)
  • zodbot (7)
  • halfline (7)
  • bitlord (6)
  • pwhalen (5)
  • drago01_ (3)
  • ignatenkobrain (2)
  • brunowolff (1)


  • Previous meeting follow-up
  • Fedora 20 Alpha final work and retrospective
  • Fedora 20 Beta planning
  • Open floor

Previous meeting follow-up

  • pschindl to send out karma/testing request for not-yet-stable updates in RC2 - this was likely done, by the time of the meeting had become irrelevant
  • tflink to make sure some cloud testing is getting done - this was done, tim did some testing on RC4 AMIs
  • tflink to file blocker bug about DOA i386 AMI - not done, though the bug got fixed: we still needed to figure out where to file such bugs, as the cloud image kickstarts are not part of a Fedora package (yet?)
  • tflink to propose moving 'boot from optical media' criterion from alpha to beta - proposal was posted

Fedora 20 Alpha final work and retrospective

  • Fedora 20 Alpha was signed off and planned for release the day after the meeting
  • Common bugs entries need writing: adamw and roshi would work on it
  • Looked like things were mostly in place for ARM and cloud image publication

Fedora 20 Beta planning

  • tflink suggested that we should do some gnome-on-wayland testing
  • First Beta blocker meeting would go ahead on Wednesday 09-25
  • TC1 scheduled for 10-01 (next Tuesday), go/no-go for 10-24

Open floor

  • We agreed we should look at ways to tie cloud SIG into validation testing more closely and verify their work

Action items

  • tflink to talk to releng about where to file bugs in the cloud .ks and whether it needs to be packaged in the distro
  • adamw to get F20 common bugs page up and populated
  • adamw to send the update criteria to 'production'
  • adamw to check if any further criteria changes are needed to beta/final for arm/cloud


tflink #startmeeting Fedora QA meeting 15:01
zodbot Meeting started Mon Sep 23 15:01:02 2013 UTC. The chair is tflink. Information about MeetBot at 15:01
zodbot Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 15:01
tflink #meetingname fedora-qa 15:01
zodbot The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa' 15:01
tflink #topic Roll Call 15:01
tflink #chair adamw 15:01
zodbot Current chairs: adamw tflink 15:01
adamw ahoyhoy 15:01
adamw meeting thief 15:01
adamw :P 15:01
* pwhalen is here 15:01
tflink if I would have known you were around, I would have waited :) 15:01
tflink I can end the meeting so that you can start it, if that would make you feel better 15:02
roshi is here 15:04
tflink we'll be missing all the brno folks today 15:04
* roshi 15:04
adamw ah, public holiday? 15:04
adamw tflink: no, fine by me 15:04
tflink team building stuff 15:04
ignatenkobrain hey 15:05
ignatenkobrain what's meeting today ? 15:05
adamw horrible creatures 15:05
adamw terrible, terrible things that should never see the light of day 15:06
tflink pretty much, yeah :) 15:06
* jreznik is here 15:06
* adamw wonders if viking_ice is hiding in the woods near the team-building exercise in full viking war mode 15:06
tflink that brings strange visuals to mind 15:07
jreznik no team building - this year only for devels and qa to make theirs life together better, nicer, sweeter :) 15:07
adamw oh god, i hope somebody called 112 15:09
* adamw imagines CNN crew arriving on scene 15:09
adamw "My god! Can somebody tell me what plane crashed here?" 15:09
adamw "No plane crash. Only team building exercises." 15:09
tflink reminds me of my old job when we had a kickball tournament 15:10
adamw welp, let's see 15:10
jreznik qa collided with devels 15:10
tflink a couple of people ended up in the hospital 15:10
tflink and that was the last time we were allowed to have a kickball tournament :) 15:10
adamw they were the lucky ones? :) 15:10
* roshi must have always worked at the wrong place. They never tried to build a team... :p 15:11
tflink not really, some of them needed physical therapy and took months to recover fully 15:11
jreznik tflink: well, year ago we played football (our, european one) against some school trip guys and the amount of blood, when members of our team hit themselves... 15:11
adamw welp, i guess we have enough people to roll through the agenda 15:11
adamw #topic Previous meeting follow-up 15:13
adamw "pschindl to send out karma/testing request for not-yet-stable updates in RC2" - well, one way or another we got past that 15:13
adamw #info "pschindl to send out karma/testing request for not-yet-stable updates in RC2" - probably done, now stale 15:13
adamw "tflink to make sure some cloud testing is getting done" - assume that was done too? 15:13
tflink jreznik: so the moral of this story is nerds + sports == injury :) 15:13
tflink yeah, I did some testing on the RC4 AMIs 15:13
adamw #info "tflink to make sure some cloud testing is getting done" - done, tim did some testing on RC4 AMIs 15:14
adamw "tflink to file blocker bug about DOA i386 AMI" - so i presume that was done too? 15:14
tflink yeah, we should probably make a new list of stuff that needs karma 15:14
tflink adamw: nope, it got fixed without the blocker bug 15:14
tflink never did figure out where to file that 15:14
jreznik would be great to figure it out 15:15
tflink it was fixed in the cloud ks 15:15
jreznik (where to file such cases) 15:15
adamw oh kay 15:15
adamw #info "tflink to file blocker bug about DOA i386 AMI" - not done, though the bug got fixed: still need to figure out where to file such bugs 15:15
adamw where does the cloud ks live? 15:15
adamw is it part of spin-kickstarts? 15:16
tflink good question 15:16
jreznik as it went out of our radar a few times and there was no formal blocker decision... 15:16
tflink looks like a separate repo 15:16
tflink commit messages go out to cloud@ 15:16
jreznik yep, it's not in spin-kickstarts 15:16
adamw well, wherever it is, it probably needs to be packaged for self-hosting purposes... 15:17
tflink 15:17
adamw #action tflink to talk to releng about where to file bugs in the cloud .ks and whether it needs to be packaged in the distro 15:17
* satellit_e joined late 15:18
adamw "tflink to propose moving 'boot from optical media' criterion from alpha to beta" 15:19
adamw i think you agreed to do that, right? 15:19
tflink that happened, was waiting for some more +1s before moving to criteria wiki pages 15:19
adamw it does leave us in the rather interesting position that we don't directly require the optical ISO to, er, boot at all in alpha 15:19
tflink not unless it's properly sized 15:20
brunowolff It's cheaper to test with USB drives. 15:20
adamw tflink: true 15:20
tflink who's going to burn alpha to a DL DVD or a BD-R, anyways 15:20
adamw dl dvds aren't THAT hard to get a hold of, but yeah. 15:21
* satellit_e I still think we should issue 2 DVD's with different DE and basics so both were under DVD max size 15:21
jreznik and size is hard to get properly for alpha... 15:21
tflink they're not hard to find but they're expensive 15:21
adamw satellit: not really relevant to this discussion, though. it'd still be possible for one of them to go over. 15:21
tflink not cost prohibitive, but I'd still question why anyone would do that with alpha 15:21
adamw people do weird things 15:22
adamw but hey 15:22
adamw changes look good to me 15:22
adamw i'd say fire away 15:22
adamw #info "tflink to propose moving 'boot from optical media' criterion from alpha to beta" - proposal was posted: 15:23
adamw any follow-up i'm missing, having been away? 15:23
tflink not that I'm aware of, no 15:24
tflink the app installer thing that we were being volunteered for went away 15:24
drago01_ testing "optical media" 15:25
drago01_ is very easy to do with a vm 15:25
tflink drago01_: not the same thing 15:26
adamw drago01_: we've come across corner cases where the image hasn't worked right when written to an actual disc in the past, and it's something we always want to test explicitly 15:26
adamw tflink: well i'm bringing that up later anyhow 15:27
drago01_ ok 15:27
adamw #topic Fedora 20 Alpha final work and retrospective 15:27
adamw #info Fedora 20 Alpha was approved and will go out tomorrow: nice job all 15:27
adamw looks like i just get in the way, huh 15:27
adamw so the obvious action item that we need to get done today is to get commonbugs up 15:28
adamw #action adamw to get F20 common bugs page up and populated 15:28
adamw if anyone wants to help write entries, please do 15:28
adamw roshi: have you worked on commonbugs at all yet? 15:28
roshi nope 15:28
roshi or, if I have I didn't know it 15:28
adamw roshi: maybe i'll rope you in to help with that 15:28
adamw oh, you'd know it :P 15:28
roshi haha 15:28
adamw 15:28
roshi works for me 15:28
tflink i created the skeleton page 15:28
adamw tflink: thanks 15:28
tflink but didn't actually write anything meaningful in it :) 15:29
adamw so, anyone think of anything else we need to check in on before tomorrow? 15:29
tflink not really 15:29
adamw guess we might want to double check everything's lined up to publish the arm and cloud images 15:31
adamw though it'd really be fpm or fpl stuff i think :P 15:31
tflink yeah, it looked like the "first class cloud" stuff was done with websites last I checked 15:31
tflink but agreed that it would be worth looking into 15:31
jreznik website guys are working on the support, I expect it should be ok (trying to follow it up) 15:31
pwhalen I'll write up the arm install instructions today, there is a place holder there that needs some edits 15:33
adamw cool, thanks 15:33
jreznik #link 15:33
adamw #info looks like things are mostly in place for ARM and cloud image publication 15:33
pwhalen adamw, if i come across something for common bugs, I'll also add to the page you mentioned 15:34
adamw pwhalen: you should also mark it with the CommonBugs keyword and if you add it into the page, add the URL to Whiteboard 15:34
adamw helps with tracking 15:34
pwhalen adamw, okay, will do 15:35
adamw this is explained in the comments to the commonbugs wiki source, which apparently no-one ever reads 15:35
pwhalen :) 15:35
adamw #info no-one can think of much else that needs doing for Alpha prep 15:37
adamw #topic Fedora 20 Beta planning 15:37
* Viking-Ice is doing team building exercise 15:38
adamw anything anyone can think of going forward for beta that we should consider now? any lessons from alpha cycle - criteria changes we need to do, test cases that needs fixing/adding? 15:38
satellit_e the test matrix needs work . spins particularly 15:38
tflink has anyone tried out gnome+wayland? 15:38
satellit_e also The test page link needs to be prominently displayed on the install page : as it is critical for the spin release being done. "yes" in right collums being criteria. 15:38
tflink the test case problem from alpha (updates.img) was fixed, IIRC 15:39
tflink yeah, pschindl created a new updates.img 15:39
bitlord tflink, I wanted to try ti because it shows up in gdm sessions, but later I heard gdm cannot start shell on wayland yet 15:39
* jreznik has to leave now... will be online later to track alpha readiness :) 15:39
adamw satellit: when you say 'needs work', you mean we need to do the testing? or the matrix itself is busted? 15:40
adamw tflink: not yet, probably a good idea 15:40
tflink bitlord: ok, I thought it was working for the most part 15:40
bitlord tflink, it is possible to do it from terminal I think, but no command here, have it on another machine in IRC log from #gnome-shell @gimpnet 15:40
adamw #info tflink suggests that we should do some gnome-on-wayland testing 15:40
satellit_e the matrix is not very relevant for Soas,,, 15:40
satellit_e is list I did of f19 15:40
satellit_e for* 15:41
tflink secureboot 15:42
Viking-Ice tflink, I actually was hoping for the venue for gnome+wayland would be Gnome-SIG product so it would not be disruptive to the general desktop product to prevent us having to relive the graphics driver disruption all over again but but hey RH Desktop team successfully shot that down 15:42
tflink Viking-Ice: it's only planned as a preview for F20 15:42
adamw satellit: oh right, and i never got around to fiddling it into the matrix :( maybe you should do it, heh 15:42
satellit_e ok will do so if it is oK 15:43
adamw Viking-Ice: right, i think we just want to check it out so we know roughly where it's at and can answer questions 15:43
tflink I just think it'll get a decent amount of attention if it mostly works and would be worth the time to poke at it and make sure it isn't completely busted 15:43
Viking-Ice tflink, as an desktop product even as a preview it would have to pass our test matrix 15:43
adamw satellit: if you edit it into the template page i can have a look over and let you know if it looks ok to me if you want 15:43
satellit_e ok will work on it thanks 15:43
adamw Viking-Ice: i don't see it that's explicitly listed as a preview in f20 15:43
Viking-Ice adamw, irrelevant release blocking desktop 15:44
Viking-Ice hence one of the reason for the Gnome SIG 15:44
tflink Viking-Ice: wayland isn't release blocking for f20, though 15:44
adamw Viking-Ice: the fact that it's a release-blocking desktop doesn't mean we require absolutely every bit of code it contains to work. 15:44
adamw i don't think anyone besides you is working on the basis that gnome-on-wayland is release blocking for f20...:) 15:44
adamw i certainly haven't been 15:44
Viking-Ice adamw, good for you 15:45
tflink same here, I really doubt that it'll be ready for everyday usage for F20 15:45
adamw no-one else seems to be under that impression either from what i've seen 15:45
halfline bitlord: indeed, i didn't get the start wayland from GDM code ready in time for feature freeze 15:47
halfline it's sitting on a branch, but unfinished 15:47
adamw so as things stand we're scheduled to go straight for a blocker meeting on wednesday 15:47
tflink do we have any proposed blockers? 15:47
Viking-Ice adamw, well based on fesco dictating how they go about things I cannot see how no one does not see it that way 15:47
adamw yeah 15:47
adamw 15:47
Viking-Ice <sigh> Anaconda really always that much 15:48
* tflink changes current to beta 15:48
adamw Viking-Ice: i don't really see that anything written down anywhere says gnome-on-wayland would be release blocking. it's not absolutely explicitly specified in the criteria pages that it only applies to X, but then it doesn't state that it applies to all graphical servers either. 15:48
Viking-Ice adamw, well we are always changing the criteria anyway so let's adjusted the invevitable now 15:49
adamw Viking-Ice: we could explicitly specify it, i suppose, but there does have to be a common-sense line *somewhere* 15:49
Viking-Ice adamw, that line we move every release cycle even during the testing phase so... 15:50
adamw or else i'd have to write stuff like 'on the default display server, so long as a keyboard is plugged in, and you have enough memory, and you're not remoting your desktop via RFC 1149...' 15:50
adamw it's not really practical to encode EVERY goddamn assumption or you wind up writing eu food safety legislation :P 15:51
Viking-Ice well hopefully I manage to kill the gnome tunnel vision in the project and we in QA start focusing strictly on the installer and the core/baseOS 15:51
adamw that's really kind of a separate question 15:51
adamw anyhow 15:51
adamw sounds like blocker meeting on wed makes sense 15:51
adamw #info first Beta blocker meeting will go ahead on Wednesday 09-25 15:51
tflink yeah, makes sense to have one - already have several proposed blockers 15:52
* adamw thinks any day you can work a reference to RFC 1149 into the conversation is a good day 15:52
adamw TC1 is scheduled for 10-01, next tuesday 15:52
* tflink makes mental note to avoid conversations with adamw 15:52
adamw certainly early enough 15:52
bitlord halfline, ok, but would be nice to have somewhere in documentation how to test wayland on fedora (as technology preview, or how they call those things which aren't features ;-) 15:53
adamw go/no-go is 10-24 15:53
adamw #info TC1 scheduled for 10-01 (next Tuesday), go/no-go for 10-24 15:53
adamw .fire tflink 15:53
zodbot adamw fires tflink 15:53
adamw insubordination! 15:53
halfline bitlord: yea makes sense 15:54
bitlord halfline, and probably "hide" it from gdm sessions, so people don't get confused when trying and it doesn't work, so no unneeded bugs reported 15:54
halfline though i'm hoping to get a f20 update out that enables testing when it's ready 15:54
Viking-Ice so any known criteria alteration we need to do before we start the beta process 15:54
bitlord halfline, /me not a qa member, just do some testing sometimes ;-) 15:55
adamw i need to put the update criteria change into production i guess 15:55
adamw bitlord: that pretty much makes you a qa member :P 15:55
Viking-Ice adamw, as soon as yesterday 15:55
Viking-Ice ;) 15:55
bitlord adamw, hehe, thanks ;-) 15:55
adamw #action adamw to send the update criteria to 'production' 15:55
tflink adamw: you forgot to put the reason into the .fire :) 15:55
halfline in retrospect the wayland session file probably shouldn't be in /usr/share/xsessions 15:55
adamw .fire tflink again: nitpicking 15:55
zodbot adamw fires tflink again: nitpicking 15:56
halfline since it's not an X session, and since display managers need special handling to support it 15:56
adamw halfline: yeah, there are tools/docs which assume anything there is a perfectly normal X session, i think. 15:56
adamw any other criteria changes required? i can't think of any 15:58
* adamw should check if anything needs changing for arm/cloud 15:58
tflink requiring optical boot @ beta 15:58
tflink but we already covered that 15:58
adamw #action adamw to check if any further criteria changes are needed to beta/final for arm/cloud 15:58
adamw tflink: it already *does*, the only necessary change is to the 'explanatory text' 15:58
adamw but that's not critical 15:58
halfline adamw: okay i got gnome release-team approval to change that before 3.10 today 16:00
adamw cool 16:01
adamw okay then, we're over time, so a quick: 16:01
adamw #topic Open floor 16:01
Viking-Ice so the cloud testing for beta is it solid this time or will we be experiencing those hickups as we did during alpha 16:01
adamw any other business? 16:01
tflink Viking-Ice: depends on if we do the testing, I imagine 16:02
adamw Viking-Ice: well i asked earlier if there was anything we needed to change based on arm/cloud experiences for alpha and no-one had any suggestions... 16:02
Viking-Ice tflink, well it's up to the cloud community to do the testing 16:02
tflink in theory, yes 16:02
tflink in practice, though? 16:02
Viking-Ice yes 16:02
tflink I don't remember them ever helping out with testing unless someone specifically asked for it on cloud@ 16:03
Viking-Ice sub community in general should do their testing 16:03
tflink s/ever/ever helping out with much/ 16:03
tflink sure, but you also used the "s word" 16:03
adamw well, maybe we need a better process for pulling them into testing 16:03
Viking-Ice and I thought robin was working on granting access to people 16:03
tflink I really don't think access was the problem 16:04
tflink at full price, an hour with a micro instance is USD 0.20 16:04
adamw tflink: your substitution skills suck 16:04
tflink s/0.20/0.02 16:04
adamw tflink: plus the barrier of 'i have to give amazon my visa card so i can test this thing?' 16:04
tflink adamw: or I'm just lazy :) 16:04
tflink true, I already have it set up for other things 16:05
Viking-Ice why on earth did we approve something to be release blocking while it has a prize tag on it <sigh> 16:05
tflink amazon isn't the only way to test for criterion violation 16:05
tflink it's just the easiest 16:05
tflink the way that the crition is worded, it just needs to work with xen 16:06
Viking-Ice tflink, dont we already have virtualsation criteria that covers xen ( as well as kvm ) 16:06
tflink Viking-Ice: there is a separate cloud requrement 16:06
Viking-Ice tflink, is that due to adamw "Recommending kvm" 16:06
tflink unrelated 16:07
tflink xen DomO is not a release blocking issue 16:07
Viking-Ice we should just have one criteria that covers "all virtual" 16:07
tflink no, we shouldn't 16:07
adamw Viking-Ice: then we're on the hook for vbox, which we don't want to be. 16:07
adamw and we want to support only domU for xen, but both host and guest for KVM. 16:07
tflink vbox, vmware, hyperv ... 16:07
adamw er, 'block on', not 'support'. 16:08
Viking-Ice adamw, arent we playing that game with amazon 16:08
adamw playing what game? 16:08
tflink the most common virtualization for cloud is kvm and xen 16:08
Viking-Ice the support 16:08
adamw Viking-Ice: EC2 is xen. 16:08
tflink so is rackspace 16:08
Viking-Ice and so our virtualsation should cover xen/kvm 16:08
adamw we agreed EC2 would be a 'blocking platform' for f20 cloud stuff because, basically, the world and their mom runs stuff in ec2 16:09
Viking-Ice and infra should set up host internally to test that stuff 16:09
adamw it's kind of a practical choice 16:09
tflink Viking-Ice: it does 16:09
Viking-Ice not really far from it actually practical for rhel I suppose 16:09
adamw Viking-Ice: and they are. it's just that it'd be nice to check everything works as intended in the exact amazon ec2 configuration so you can just click the AMI or whatever and be done 16:09
adamw that's one of the main goals of the whole 'first class cloud' thing 16:09
Viking-Ice I dont mind first class cloud thing as we host and test it privately as in our infrastructure on a fedora host 16:10
tflink bring it up with fesco 16:10
Viking-Ice lol no thank you sure 16:11
Viking-Ice mean sir 16:11
tflink that's where the first class cloud stuff came from 16:11
tflink well, the feature process 16:11
Viking-Ice ah I see that explains it 16:11
tflink it is a feature for f20, IIRC 16:12
adamw Viking-Ice: it's kind of a 'map is not the territory' thing 16:12
Viking-Ice bottom line gnome sig is also result from fesco decision making 16:12
adamw what we're trying to ensure is 'you can just click a button and up pops f20 in ec2' 16:12
adamw the only way you can really test that reliably is *to test it in ec2* 16:12
adamw we can never guarantee that we have a perfect internal copy of ec2 or something 16:12
Viking-Ice which brings us back to what the cloud sig should be doing 16:12
tflink and using the s-word again 16:13
Viking-Ice but making it release blocking is arguably questionable 16:13
adamw like i said, perhaps the thing we should be aiming for is to have a more robust process for getting the cloud sig involved in validation testing 16:13
adamw did we do anything specific down that line for alpha? or just trust that they'd follow along? 16:13
Viking-Ice well we did ping them ( and them being matt ) 16:13
tflink they said they did testing, and we believed it until I found the x32 image to be DOA 16:14
tflink we can try pestering them on cloud@ more 16:14
Viking-Ice in the end of the day this is their "product" and their responsibility and if it fails to shine on amazon then it's their fault 16:15
Viking-Ice to be blunt 16:15
tflink sure but we still look bad 16:15
Viking-Ice no they look bad 16:15
Viking-Ice the only time we look bad as a project is when we have "defaults" that look bad 16:16
adamw anyhow 16:16
tflink because your average ec2 user isn't going to say "fedora sucks on the cloud, they can't test this stuff" 16:16
adamw we're 16 minutes over at this point 16:16
adamw i think we got the juice out 16:16
tflink probably not, but we're getting into flamewar territory :) 16:16
tflink yep 16:16
adamw #info we should look at ways to tie cloud SIG into validation testing more closely and verify their work 16:16
adamw were they actually filing bogus entries in the matrices? or were they just saying 'yeah sure, we tested that'? 16:17
tflink the latter 16:17
Viking-Ice well we see who get's the blame when Gnome removes the middle mouse click paste Fedora or Gnome ( default or not ) 16:17
tflink i didn't think that was on purpose, was it? 16:17
adamw it was on purpose, yeah. just a little premature. 16:18
Viking-Ice tflink, it's going to be 16:18
adamw but i'd say it'd be gnome that gets the blame :P 16:18
adamw buty we're definitely off topic now 16:18
* adamw sets quantum fuse 16:18
tflink I'd ask why they removed it, but I know better 16:18
Viking-Ice tflink, I spent 1 and half our watching the designer and developers arguing before I gave up. it felt like watching highlander 2 all over again and literally knew I those minutes of my life I would not get back so yeah one know better 16:19
adamw tflink: i think the idea is to use middle-click for something shinier and more modern, but my eyes kinda glazed over at some point. 16:20
tflink Viking-Ice: yeah, that sounds like what I expected 16:20
* roshi didn't even know his scroll wheel button *ever* did anything useful 16:21
Viking-Ice and you have been using linux for how long again? 16:21
roshi how did I not know this? It's useful 16:21
adamw roshi: wait, you didn't know that? 16:21
roshi well - I try to not use a mouse if I can help it 16:21
adamw .fire roshi insufficient geekiness 16:21
zodbot adamw fires roshi insufficient geekiness 16:21
roshi and there it is! 16:22
adamw alright, thanks for coming folks 16:22
adamw #endmeeting 16:22

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