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< QA‎ | Meetings

Attendees

  • adamw (159)
  • cmurf (67)
  • Viking-Ice (64)
  • jreznik_ (21)
  • kparal (15)
  • roshi (12)
  • satellit (9)
  • robatino (9)
  • zodbot (7)
  • tflink (6)
  • pwhalen (5)
  • drago01_ (4)
  • cwickert1 (3)
  • satellit_f20 (3)
  • jreznik (3)
  • sgallagh (2)
  • cwickert (2)
  • mkrizek (1)
  • pschindl (1)

Agenda

  • Previous meeting follow-up
  • Matrix revisions
  • Fedora 20 Final status
  • Open floor

Previous meeting follow-up

  • jreznik to move forward with proposing switch to 'feature preview mode' for thinp - this was proposed to fesco but deferred to anaconda team on the basis thinp isn't actually the area giving us many problems right now, though everyone recognizes the issue of overwork for anaconda storage devs. kparal posted mockups to anaconda-devel-list
  • cmurf and kparal to discuss status of btrfs with anaconda team - aside from kparal's mockup, not done yet (cmurf was ill). adamw had an informal discussion with anaconda devs where the idea of btrfs as a tech preview was not ruled in or out, but it may be quite late to try and change it for F20

Matrix revisions

  • We have test cases to check the checksums for most media, but not for the cloud images
  • adamw said he would draft new test cases and submit them to the list

Fedora 20 Final status

  • As of the meeting, final freeze was the following day. Final TC2 was undergoing testing, and TC3 was expected soon. The blocker list was quite long, and TC2 test coverage was not complete
  • Several important-looking critical path updates did not have sufficient karma to go stable yet. We agreed to send a mail asking for karma to try and get them out before the freeze
  • Two KDE-related bugs were proposed as blockers; we agreed to check with KDE team that they were under control

Open floor

N/A

Action items

  • adamw to draft a new test case and matrix row for validating cloud image checksums
  • adamw to make sure the desktop tests are completed for TC2
  • jreznik to check in with KDE team if they're on top of the two proposed KDE blockers or if help would be appreciated
  • cmurf to send a quick email to test-announce asking folks to test and karma critpath updates ahead of freeze tomorrow

IRC Log

adamw #startmeeting Fedora QA meeting 16:00
zodbot Meeting started Mon Nov 25 16:00:14 2013 UTC. The chair is adamw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 16:00
zodbot Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 16:00
* adamw thwaps meetbot with a wrench 16:00
adamw #meetingname fedora-qa 16:01
zodbot The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa' 16:01
cmurf seriously 16:01
adamw #topic Roll call 16:01
adamw cmurf: seriously. i have the golden touch 16:01
adamw OK, who's about for some loosely-labelled 'fun'? 16:01
cmurf no i figured meetbot has needed backside of the head treatment for months 16:01
* jreznik will be ready soon, a dog needs to go out for a sec 16:01
* Viking-Ice fetches coffee 16:01
* roshi is here 16:01
* mkrizek is here 16:02
* tflink is here 16:02
adamw Viking-Ice: mine's a double double 16:02
cmurf oh yeah coffee, brb 16:02
* adamw leaves two minutes for everyone to get coffee 16:05
adamw i'm a goddamn humanitarian 16:05
cmurf or a realist 16:05
adamw heh 16:06
adamw #topic Previous meeting follow-up 16:06
adamw "jreznik to move forward with proposing switch to 'feature preview mode' for thinp" 16:07
adamw well, i know about that one 16:07
Viking-Ice the not so ready thinp ;) 16:07
* pschindl is late but here 16:07
adamw #info "jreznik to move forward with proposing switch to 'feature preview mode' for thinp" - this was proposed to fesco but rejected on basis thinp isn't actually the area giving us many problems right now, though everyone recognizes the issue of overwork for anaconda storage devs 16:07
jreznik yeah, kparal sent a mockup to anaconda devel list 16:07
cmurf i think thinp is more of an unknown, the issue is that it's caused other LVM problems that are still getting flushed out 16:08
adamw hmm, that was a bit off 16:08
adamw #undo 16:08
zodbot Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0xa328dd0> 16:08
adamw #info "jreznik to move forward with proposing switch to 'feature preview mode' for thinp" - this was proposed to fesco but deferred to anaconda team on basis thinp isn't actually the area giving us many problems right now, though everyone recognizes the issue of overwork for anaconda storage devs 16:08
jreznik seem reasonable and in case of big issues we will follow up with anaconda guys 16:09
adamw cmurf: sorry i couldn't do a better job representing your view at the meeting, didn't have any references to hand 16:09
cmurf  ? 16:09
Viking-Ice what was anaconda's dev take on it 16:09
adamw #info kparal posted mockups of how it could be done to anaconda-devel-list: https://www.redhat.com/archives/anaconda-devel-list/2013-November/msg00049.html 16:10
cmurf which view? 16:10
* kparal arrives late 16:10
Viking-Ice looks noticeable 16:10
adamw Viking-Ice: dlehman doesn't think it's necessary to put thinp in feature preview mode 16:10
Viking-Ice and btrfs ? 16:11
adamw but he understands where we're coming from in general, that there's just too much storage stuff 16:11
adamw i'm not sure if anyone made a definite decision about btrfs, have to look back in the logs 16:11
adamw anyone else remember? 16:11
* cmurf got sick, kparal did all the work 16:11
cmurf (mockup, etc) 16:11
kparal I didn't see any decision about btrfs 16:11
kparal and no reply to my mockup either :) 16:12
cmurf so we haven't had a btrfs throwdown and i think we just try to skate through to final 16:12
cmurf mkfs.btrfs flags a big all caps EXPERIENTAL banner at the user 16:12
Viking-Ice well then we add all the thinp issues to the blocker list 16:12
adamw Viking-Ice: like what? i couldn't actually find any when fesco asked 16:12
Viking-Ice regardless if they are some corner cases 16:13
cmurf it's completely reasonable that the installer notify users 16:13
adamw but yeah, if you're aware of any that look blocker-y, they get to be blockers 16:13
cmurf even if it's a belated addition 16:13
Viking-Ice yes I would think so 16:13
cmurf most of the LVM, conventional or thinp, problems aren't data risking things, they're boot problems 16:14
cmurf and mounting problems 16:14
cmurf so you get cases where an LV just can't be found or activated 16:14
Viking-Ice right 16:14
Viking-Ice and those should be blockers 16:14
* pwhalen is here 16:14
Viking-Ice if it prevents boots or causes issues at bootup they are clear blockers 16:15
adamw so for the record: http://ur1.ca/g3h88 is the conversation we had in #anaconda shortly after the fesco discussion 16:15
cmurf Viking-Ice: agreed, although then to be consistent the same applies to btrfs 16:15
adamw it kinda spun off in a different direction quite quickly, but on the topic, dlehman said "it might be nice to make both thinp and btrfs tech previews...of course it'd mostly have been nice if I'd done it for alpha" 16:16
adamw so i think he's of the opinion that it's too late at this point 16:16
adamw but we didn't make an absolutely definite decision 16:16
Viking-Ice the only point it's to late is when we have already released ;) 16:16
kparal Viking-Ice: +1 16:16
adamw heh 16:16
roshi +1 16:17
adamw so in the agenda, we have this: "cmurf and kparal to discuss status of btrfs with anaconda team" 16:17
adamw did you guys have any discussions i haven't covered yet, or shall i #info the informal one from above? 16:17
cmurf well i was delerious on illness so that didn't happen 16:17
adamw owch :( hope you're better! 16:17
kparal I had no separate discussion on btrfs 16:17
cmurf i'm fine 16:17
adamw ok 16:17
Viking-Ice that would have been intersting discussion had it taken place high on pain meds lol 16:17
cmurf no pain meds 16:17
cmurf no sick meds 16:18
cmurf coffee, tea, water, and candy 16:18
jreznik_ and as I said, kparal sent a proposal how to deal with experimental stuff :) gimp monkey! 16:18
cmurf LOL 16:18
* satellit_f20 here late listening 16:18
kparal I think the important fesco messages is that they can do whatever they see fit, even with btrfs 16:18
Viking-Ice so what they overule us ? 16:18
adamw #info "cmurf and kparal to discuss status of btrfs with anaconda team" - aside from kparal's mockup, not done yet (cmurf was ill). adamw had an informal discussion with anaconda devs where the idea of btrfs as a tech preview was not ruled in or out, but it may be quite late to try and change it for F20. 16:18
jreznik_ kparal: yep and that we don't have anything like official tech preview but if anyone wants to say this is experimental, it's still ok 16:18
adamw Viking-Ice: the 'they' in that sentence was 'anaconda team', i believe 16:19
kparal yes 16:19
adamw basically, fesco left it up to the anaconda devs what to do 16:19
cmurf they are excellent delegators 16:19
adamw so shall i set an action on cmurf/kparal again for this week, or what? 16:19
Viking-Ice adamw, does not change matter there is no point in release criteria if it can be overruled 16:19
sgallagh adamw: We left it up to the anaconda devs to decide if the bugs can be fixed for final or not. 16:19
adamw Viking-Ice: there's nothing in any discussion about overriding release criteria 16:19
adamw sgallagh: thanks 16:19
sgallagh If not, I'm still of the opinion that sticking (experimental) next to the drop down is ok 16:20
kparal I think it's anaconda's decision right now 16:20
Viking-Ice sgallagh, there is also the bootup ( lvm/dracut/systemd ) so this is not limited to anaconda only 16:20
adamw well i'm kinda of the opinion that the anaconda team's a bit like a log on a river 16:20
adamw unless it gets some fairly serious poking from the outside they just keep rolling along 16:20
kparal  :) 16:20
adamw if everyone just says 'eh, leave it to anaconda' and waits on anaconda team to make decisions, what will happen is forward momentum - we'll just keep going with what we've got 16:21
cmurf true 16:21
adamw i don't mind that, so long as (as viking points out) no-one else minds release slips... 16:21
Viking-Ice we seem to be dealing with a serious lvm issue in 1026860 ( which has not yet been proposed as a blocker ) 16:22
kparal poking volunteers welcome, I don't feel like doing that this week 16:22
Viking-Ice throw that in misture with lvm thinp ;) 16:22
cmurf .bug 1026860 16:22
Viking-Ice mean mixture 16:22
zodbot cmurf: Bug 1026860 Instantiated service is not run, it stays in inactive state (and systemd debug log does not state why) - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1026860 16:22
cmurf it may have been caused by the lvm thinp changes 16:22
adamw that one is proposed as a blocker, isn't it? 16:22
jreznik_ it's proposed 16:23
adamw it's in the 'needs more info to vote on' pile 16:23
jreznik_ I talked to Peter today 16:23
cmurf long hang for bugzilla... 16:23
Viking-Ice oh right missed comment 18 16:23
jreznik_ I have an answer for your question how severe it is, he promised me to put it into bz, not sure it's there 16:23
adamw that'd help 16:23
jreznik_ also he's now in touch with systemd guys as he needs help 16:23
Viking-Ice Well Václav has pinged Kay about it 16:24
jreznik_ adamw: what he says - in short - mostly hw raid should be impacted 16:24
Viking-Ice being a race condition in udev so for some it will work others it fails 16:24
Viking-Ice if the moon correctly aligns with the sun boom you cannot boot 16:25
adamw okay, we've taken a long time on this...so for now, the ball is in anaconda team's court, and if no-one does anything definite we'll carry on with the current state where we have to consider bugs in all anaconda storage mechanisms, inc thinp and btrfs, as potentially release blocking. if anyone is very unhappy about that or the consequences of it, please raise it on list or with anaconda team. 16:25
cmurf ack 16:25
adamw jreznik_: hwraid? interesting. 16:25
adamw #topic Matrix revisions 16:26
adamw so, this one comes from robatino 16:26
adamw robatino: are you around? 16:26
robatino yes, but not qualified to make the changes 16:26
jreznik_ adamw: sorry, BIOS RAID to be correct... 16:26
adamw jreznik_: ah, that makes more sense. 16:26
jreznik_ I'll ask him to put it into bz, or I can try to translate it 16:26
cmurf imsm raid 16:26
cmurf what's the problem? 16:27
jreznik_ but let's move on - adamw is right - if anyone is not happy with the latest decision, should poke on the anaconda list 16:27
Viking-Ice I thought we had move to the matrix ;) 16:28
cmurf yes 16:28
jreznik_ Viking-Ice: ah, missed that, sorry :D 16:28
cmurf bios raid matrix.... 16:28
cmurf what's the problem? 16:28
* jreznik_ read it as Martix revisions :) 16:28
adamw i was hoping robatino would be around 16:28
adamw hehe 16:28
adamw yes, we need to revise martix! 16:29
cmurf he just replied 16:29
adamw oh yes, there he is 16:29
adamw lost in the flood 16:29
adamw hi robatino! so the idea is https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2013-November/118791.html , yes? 16:29
robatino i just pointed out the problem. i don't know how to fix it 16:29
Viking-Ice hmm sounds like something that should be automated 16:30
kparal we should put it into " Cloud images" section 16:30
kparal Viking-Ice: no doubt about that. but it is not 16:30
adamw i guess we'd just write a test case that looks like the ARM one and put it in the matrix 16:30
Viking-Ice kparal, what why 16:30
Viking-Ice ( the cloud section ) 16:30
robatino technically, you could say that verifying checksum files shouldn't be in the matrix at all, since ot 16:30
robatino it's not a problem with the images themselves 16:30
kparal we can add a test case for Images/ checksums into Cloud section in the matrix 16:31
Viking-Ice yes it should not be in the matrix 16:31
adamw robatino: nah, i wouldn't buy that: the checksums are part of the compose process 16:31
robatino but they can be fixed if they're broken, unlike the other tests 16:31
Viking-Ice adamw, images and their checksums should be validated at compose time 16:31
adamw the compose process doesn't just produce images, it produces the package trees and metadata bits, seems to make sense to consider checking all of those part of 'release validation' 16:31
Viking-Ice this does not belong in our matrix 16:31
adamw Viking-Ice: everything _should_ be checked before it gets to QA 16:32
cmurf roshi: your dual boot windows test has been in progress for at least 18 hours, want me to fill it in? I've already done it, it works. 16:32
adamw happily it isn't and I can feed my cat :P 16:32
roshi haha 16:32
roshi sorry - thought I updated that 16:32
roshi but yeah, it works 16:32
Viking-Ice adamw, in perfect pony world yeah *everything* 16:32
robatino i should point out that the checksum tests in general have 2 parts: verifying a checksum file, and verifying an embedded checksum. for the Images/ dir tests, only the first applies 16:33
robatino only the second part is a problem with the images themselves 16:33
adamw Viking-Ice: anyway, we already check the checksums for everything else, so it's clearly inconsistent that we don't do it for the cloud images 16:33
Viking-Ice adamw, yup 16:34
adamw robatino: why do you say you're not qualified to fix this, btw? it's pretty straightforward 16:34
robatino i don't know anything about cloud images. anyway, i'm sleep deprived now 16:34
adamw robatino: just write a test case that's a copy of the ARM one with the appropriate changes, and draft a change to the template page that adds a row for that test case to the 'cloud images' table 16:34
adamw robatino: hell, i didn't know anything about cloud images when i put them in the matrix for alpha either. :P 16:34
adamw but i can take the #action if you like. 16:35
Viking-Ice speaking of cloud hows testing from that community going? 16:35
robatino please do 16:35
adamw Viking-Ice: they've tested things when we've pinged them that they need testing, at least. ARM seems a little more proactive 16:35
* satellit yum update does work in non-blocking soas via terminal no need to grey out box 16:36
pwhalen adamw, seems!? :) 16:36
adamw no cloud image test results filed for Final TC1 or TC2 16:36
adamw pwhalen: i'm being diplomatic :) 16:36
Viking-Ice adamw, not worried about arm, how the cloud community proceeds dealing with their stuff is an indicator how well the output from WG's will be handled 16:37
adamw #action adamw to draft a new test case and matrix row for validating cloud image checksums - https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2013-November/118791.html 16:37
adamw Viking-Ice: welp...there's the answer 16:37
jreznik_ for cloud, especially to related to first class cloud images change... 16:37
adamw moving on to try and keep under time... 16:38
adamw #topic Fedora 20 Final status 16:38
Viking-Ice adamw, welp they did not do so well with the alpha phaze 16:38
tflink IIRC, most of the f20 cloud test results have been submitted by nirik, red_alert or me 16:38
tflink but I could easily be wrong there 16:38
adamw sounds about right to me 16:38
adamw #info TC2 is currently undergoing testing. latest anaconda is one build newer than TC2, TC3 will probably come soon 16:39
cmurf freeze is this week? 16:39
adamw #undo 16:39
zodbot Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x86e9850> 16:39
tflink cmurf: tomorrow 16:39
adamw #info TC2 is currently undergoing testing. latest anaconda is two builds newer than TC2, TC3 will probably come soon 16:39
adamw #info Final freeze is tomorrow 16:40
cmurf oh goody 16:40
jreznik_ cmurf: yes 16:40
adamw #info blocker list is still pretty full, and there is missing test coverage on TC2 still 16:41
adamw it'd be good if we can get ARM and cloud testing done for TC2, and the Final desktop tests - i wish we'd got those done earlier, it's getting late 16:41
adamw #action adamw to make sure the desktop tests are completed for TC2 16:41
adamw anything on f20 status that i've not covered? 16:42
adamw anything anyone sees as a potential big problem on the horizon or anything? 16:42
pwhalen adamw, is there an area in particular for arm? believe I only need some more desktops, but not release blocking 16:42
cmurf geoip might not be working 16:42
adamw pwhalen: oh, sorry, i may have been looking at out-of-date pages 16:42
adamw cmurf: i believe it's supposed to be fixed for live in tc2. does seem better here. 16:43
pwhalen base and install are complete 16:43
cmurf https://geoip.fedoraproject.org/city 16:43
cmurf i get bogus values 16:43
adamw oh, upstream geoip 16:43
cmurf null for everything 16:43
jreznik_ there are a few potential bombs in proposed blockers... 16:43
cmurf wrong lat long 16:43
adamw cmurf: works fine here... 16:43
cmurf *shrug* 16:43
adamw jreznik_: which ones worry you particularly? 16:43
cmurf worked fine for beta 16:43
jreznik_ adamw: that plasma related one seems like upstream is fighting without any success 16:44
* satellit I see honolulu sometimes in California locations esp if wireless AP used 16:44
kparal satellit: that should be fixed in newest anaconda build 16:44
satellit k 16:44
cmurf there is a langtable update that fixes the default if geoip isn't working 16:44
adamw jreznik_: the KDE-on-ARM one? yeah, that worries me a little 16:45
jreznik_ yep 16:45
pwhalen me too 16:45
adamw that and https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1004621 are potential major KDE issues 16:45
jreznik_ and then the systemd long boot one 16:45
* adamw throws 1004621 on the proposed blocker list 16:45
adamw jreznik_: do you want an action item to check with KDE folks if they think they're well positioned to cope with those two bugs, or if there's something we (fedora) can do to help? 16:46
jreznik_ ltinkl and guys are on the arm related one, in touch with upstream 16:46
jreznik_ adamw: sure 16:46
adamw #action jreznik_ to check in with KDE team if they're on top of the two proposed KDE blockers or if help would be appreciated 16:47
adamw cmurf: that would be https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2013-21912/langtable-0.0.21-1.fc20 ? 16:48
cmurf correct 16:49
* satellit other languages in anaconda banners? 16:49
adamw that went into tc2, i believe. 16:49
adamw it's why the tc2 images got a bit bigger - but desktop still juuuuust comes out undersize. 16:49
* satellit no browser in LXDE? 16:50
adamw there's a bug report for that, right? 16:50
cmurf langtable-0.0.19-1.fc20.src.rpm is in TC2 16:50
adamw cmurf: yes, tcs get what's stable except for FE/blocker fixes that are requested 16:50
adamw cmurf: 0.0.21 won't make final unless it gets lots of karma today, or an FE bug 16:50
cmurf oic 16:51
adamw cmurf: so...you know what to do :) 16:51
cmurf alright well i'll give it karma even though it doesn't fix my bug 16:51
cmurf haha 16:51
adamw =) 16:51
adamw as long as it works, +1 is okay 16:51
* adamw can't find the bug for LXDE comps issues, anyone? 16:51
adamw oh, got it 16:51
adamw https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1033746 , it's proposed as an FE. so looks like we're on top of it, satellit 16:52
satellit k 16:52
* adamw CCs cwickert 16:53
adamw OK...anything else for f20 status? 16:54
cmurf should an email requesting critpath bug fix testing and karma go out? 16:54
cmurf better to have more of those rolled into TC3? 16:55
adamw cmurf: sure, wouldn't hurt - you want to send one? 16:55
cmurf no 16:55
cmurf haha 16:55
kparal  :)) 16:55
cmurf but ok 16:55
adamw wrong answer, try again 16:55
cmurf I have no idea how to send that big blast variety wth the long list of things to test 16:55
adamw #action cmurf to send a quick email to test-announce asking folks to test and karma critpath updates ahead of freeze tomorrow 16:55
adamw #undo 16:55
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adamw wait - are we talking about the blocker status email? 16:56
adamw i was gonna do one of those 16:56
adamw i thought you rather meant a general 'freeze is tomorrow, let's get as many updates karma'ed and pushed stable as we can' mail 16:56
cmurf i meant the later 16:56
cmurf latter 16:56
Viking-Ice so regarding lxde is someone ( beside cwickert1 ) maintaining that 16:57
adamw Viking-Ice: cwickert is the main lxde guy. i can commit fixes for something trivial like this, though, if necessary. 16:57
adamw #action cmurf to send a quick email to test-announce asking folks to test and karma critpath updates ahead of freeze tomorrow 16:57
adamw cmurf: you might want this link: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/critpath?unapproved=True&release=F20&_csrf_token=01503b08d8edf246fad28011d6f319301dde86dd 16:57
adamw grr 16:58
Viking-Ice if I'm not mistaken that compose issue has been with us in this develoeprs cycle from day one which is a strong cwickert does not have the time to maintain it anymore 16:58
adamw https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/critpath?unapproved=True&release=F20 16:58
Viking-Ice strong indicator 16:58
adamw Viking-Ice: he wasn't CCed on the bug till now, and the bug was only filed a couple of days ago 16:58
* cwickert1 still has one update pending for LXDE 16:59
adamw so yeah, folks - even ahead of cmurf's mail, take a look at https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/critpath?unapproved=True&release=F20 and karma karma karma 16:59
cwickert1 it's critical path, so feedback is welcome 16:59
cwickert1 s/feedback/karma 16:59
adamw #info critpath update for f20 that are pending karma are https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/critpath?unapproved=True , please test and karma them 16:59
adamw cwickert1: that would be https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2013-21536/lxpanel-0.6.1-1.fc20,lxlauncher-0.2.2-4.fc20,pcmanfm-1.1.2-3.D20130830gitfc8adaab77.fc20,libfm-1.1.2.2-3.fc20,menu-cache-0.5.1-1.fc20 , right? 17:00
adamw cwickert: and i take it you'll take a look at the 'missing browser' bug now I cc'ed you? 17:00
cwickert adamw: yes and yes 17:00
adamw roger 17:00
adamw i'll try and build an LXDE live with that update today and get you some karma then 17:00
cwickert I think I already filed that myself 17:00
adamw OK 17:01
adamw #topic open floor 17:01
adamw anything for open floor, quickly? 17:01
* satellit_f20 add test for Soas like the ones on sugarlabs.wiki? 17:02
Viking-Ice well the fact is that there will be no cleanup taking place in this WG nonsense which means we will remain equally fucked as we are now 17:02
Viking-Ice ( and have been ) 17:02
* adamw having trouble keeping up with the WG stuff as they all seem to be scheduling their meetings in the middle of the goddamn night for him 17:03
Viking-Ice so reporters have to know what they will be signing themselves up for 17:03
adamw but i saw that apparently there just isn't enough change so now they want to do variant release cycles as well 17:03
* satellit_f20 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Fedora/Sugar_test_cases 17:03
adamw satellit: the weekly reminder :( sorry i still didn't do that yet, i suck 17:04
* satellit thanks for looking at it 17:04
Viking-Ice adamw, variant release cycle is inevitable it's just taking longer for some people to realize it + from the looks of it dennis is pulling an Jesse keating so that wont happen anyway 17:04
adamw Viking-Ice: anything *specific* on the WG stuff that we can constructively discuss/take action on? 17:05
Viking-Ice adamw, we wont have to things will stay the same from the looks of it which is the reason I walked out of the serverWG since the process is not about any actual change 17:06
Viking-Ice at least no change that matters to us 17:06
Viking-Ice and will improve things for us here in QA 17:06
adamw  :/ 17:06
adamw i keep resolving to try and stay more plugged into that process but it's not working out. ah, well. 17:07
adamw anyone who does want to make an effort to show up to some of the WG meetings and keep tabs on the process, it'd be useful 17:07
tflink I've been trying to show up for some of the meetings 17:07
Viking-Ice well I'm keeping taps on it's proceeding 17:07
Viking-Ice in the server/base stuff 17:07
adamw yeah, thanks guys 17:08
roshi I can take notes in a WG 17:08
Viking-Ice there are no notes to take for us as things stand now and wont be heck we dont even know what they expect from us but I guess our answer will be no anyway 17:09
Viking-Ice  := 17:09
Viking-Ice  ;) 17:09
roshi looks like we need someone to watch the workstation WG and cloud? 17:09
adamw roshi: seems like it 17:09
adamw i should really be going to workstation 17:09
roshi I can watch workstation 17:09
Viking-Ice the cloud WG arguable should not exist the workstation WG is just the usual gnome 17:09
* roshi has only a little experience with cloud 17:09
* satellit I could not test as requires $ to get account 17:10
adamw ah, i see the workstation WG has set its very first goal as something that's basically impossible to achieve, whee. 17:10
Viking-Ice  ;) 17:10
drago01_ adamw: which is? 17:10
adamw oh well, don't think there's any more specific action needed here 17:11
adamw "Upgrading the system multiple times through the upgrade process should give a result that is the same as an original install of Fedora Workstation." 17:11
adamw that's never going to happen. 17:11
tflink wow 17:11
roshi o.O 17:11
* satellit offline installs are very intrusive 17:11
cmurf more like in the F21 time frame i think the WG's need to be given periodic "recruit for QA" assignment 17:12
roshi +1 cmurf 17:12
adamw sorry, how do you mean? 17:12
drago01_ adamw: not with the current way we do upgrades 17:12
Viking-Ice They are aiming for longer support life cycle as well in the serverWG without any buy from devs ( I received few emails where devs contacted me and ask me if the serverWG would sign them up for something they where not willing to do ) 17:12
drago01_ adamw: but it isn't impossible to do 17:12
adamw drago01_: or any way anyone's done upgrades ever, so far as I'm aware. 17:12
adamw that 'how do you mean' was aimed at cmurf 17:13
drago01_ adamw: yeah my point is "just upgrade every installed package" is not good enough ... we need some kind of thing that defines what is supposed to be there 17:13
jreznik_ Viking-Ice: that concerns me too... 17:13
Viking-Ice in anycase things are nowhere near ready for *any* involvement of the support community in the distribution 17:13
Viking-Ice QA/Releng/Marketing/Design 17:13
cmurf adamw: as in the WG's need to help us recruit some of their own people for testing the things they're asking everyone to build, and that will then need testing 17:14
Viking-Ice jreznik_, yeah that was one of the reason I proposed different repos per server roles and walked away as well. I dont want to have that on my consciousness signing people up for something that they are not willing to do. 17:14
cmurf in the F21 cycle, our test matrix is going to positively explode 17:14
Viking-Ice cmurf, no not for us 17:15
Viking-Ice we only care about baseWG 17:15
Viking-Ice stuff and the installer 17:15
cmurf hence why i'm saying in the f21 time frame because we don't even know such things about installer derivatives 17:15
adamw cmurf: could you explain "more like in the F21 time frame i think the WG's need to be given periodic "recruit for QA" assignment" a bit mroe? i didn't quiter grok it 17:15
Viking-Ice what ever the layers maybe on top of that from the WG's have to be covered by those WG's 17:16
cmurf adamw: I mean for the WG to be assigned, periodically, a recruitment drive for WG participants to participate in QA. 17:16
adamw ah, i see 17:17
Viking-Ice cmurf, not how the process works 17:17
adamw the way we try and get desktop SIGs and cloud/arm to help with testing those areas currently 17:17
adamw that certainly sounds like something that should happen, but as viking says, i'm not sure how we 'assign' things to WGs. 17:17
cmurf propose that they assign the task to themselves then 17:18
cmurf they can say no 17:18
Viking-Ice we just write release criteria and ensure they follow it, it's up to them if they meet those release criteria or not ( if not no release ) 17:18
adamw sounds reasonable, though we're still a long way ahead of any actual products to test 17:18
Viking-Ice very long way ahead 17:18
adamw ok, we're 20 mins over time...anything else? 17:18
Viking-Ice not from me 17:18
* cmurf is going to murder more coffee bean deities to create the divine elixir. 17:19
* roshi is going to do the same 17:20
adamw you heartless people 17:21
* adamw goes to play with his new tablet some more I MEAN TEST TC@ 17:21
adamw thanks for coming, folks 17:21
adamw #endmeeting 17:21

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