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Fedora Release Engineering Meeting - 2009-05-04

Preview Release

Known issues:

  • PPC had a variety of issues
    • oversized
    • installed the wrong kernel
    • failed to install a bootloader
  • assorted anaconda partitioning issues

Discussed possibly using a separate kickstart config for PPC to keep it under size constraints, but it was decided to stay with one config.

Deltarpm for F11

Work needs done to either compose updates in a chroot (which has the F11 deltarpm support) or to backport it to the OS release used to generate updates. Seth Vidal is going to investigate which of these makes more sense. Given the timeframe, this is tight for F11 final. rawhide will continue to have deltas, as that's a separate compose process.

F12 schedule

The schedule proposed by John Poelstra for Fedora 12 in was reviewed. The following changes were approved:

  • the alpha milestone was removed entirely
  • due to conferences such as the Red Hat Summit, LinuxCon, and Linux Plumber's Conference, each milestone from 'Final freeze: development' (2009-09-15) should be shifted out one week.

This pushes GA from 2009-10-27 to 2009-11-03. The schedule will be presented for FESCo discussion at the 2009-05-08 meeting.

Full IRC log

---f13 has changed the topic to: Fedora Release Engineering - roll call May 04 14:00
f13 ping: notting jwb rdieter lmacken spot dgilmore-oz warren May 04 14:01
notting hey May 04 14:01
rdieter here May 04 14:01
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f13 wow, nobody else. May 04 14:04
*wwoods is here, though uncalled May 04 14:04
f13 shit, I knew I forgot somebody May 04 14:04
f13 sorry wwoods May 04 14:04
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f13 I'm still not fully in the swing of things again, last week took a lot out of me May 04 14:04
---f13 has changed the topic to: fedora releng - preview release May 04 14:05
f13 so preview went out, not as great as we hoped it would be. May 04 14:05
f13 big issues, anaconda partitioning, and ppc May 04 14:05
f13 ppc was oversized, even though I thought I fixed that. Also it installs ppc32 kernel on ppc64 systems May 04 14:06
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f13 and there are some seemingly ppc specific partitioning issues May 04 14:06
*jwb pops in late May 04 14:06
davej I managed to get through a network ppc install last week, and it had some kind of bootloader catastrophe May 04 14:06
f13 and then anaconda partitioning in general is still a big rough. May 04 14:06
f13 jwb: we're talking about preview. May 04 14:06
f13 davej: catastrophe in the form of not actually installing a boot loader? May 04 14:07
davej never had chance to diagnose it, but I just got a sad mac face icon when I rebooted May 04 14:07
jwb whoa... May 04 14:07
jwb what kind of ppc machine? May 04 14:07
f13 yeah, I put in a patch back on the 17th to fix this May 04 14:07
davej olde imac g3 May 04 14:07
jwb odd May 04 14:07
f13 could have sworn it's in May 04 14:08
davej that would have been on teh 26th, so unless it wasn't in rawhide at the time... May 04 14:08
f13 so probably not hte same bug. May 04 14:08
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rdieter I was asked, didn't know the answer, are there going to be ppc live images ? May 04 14:08
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jwb probably not May 04 14:08
davej I filed an anaconda bug on it. should be blocker material maybe? May 04 14:08
*davej hunts for it May 04 14:09
rdieter jwb: is stuff broke or just not much interest to work on it? May 04 14:09
jwb rdieter, not much demand. livecd-tools was broken for a long time until last week May 04 14:09
davej May 04 14:09
buggbot Bug 497745: medium, low, ---, anaconda-maint-list, NEW, fails to install boot loader on ppc May 04 14:09
rdieter jwb: ok May 04 14:09
f13 davej: yeah, should be a blocker May 04 14:09
davej ok May 04 14:09
f13 I'll try a ppc install today May 04 14:10
jwb f13, there hasn't been an updated anaconda in a few days. maybe worth pinging the anaconda team about first? May 04 14:11
f13 I dont' know if there have been that many commits in the last few days May 04 14:11
f13 given it was the weekend May 04 14:11
rdieter are the anaconda partitioning problems well understood and/or being fixed... or is more testing/feedback needed? any ideas? May 04 14:11
f13 rdieter: all of the above May 04 14:11
jwb f13, there is at least one upstream fix that should allow upgrades to work May 04 14:12
rdieter heh, gotcha. I'll test some too, bugs, etc... May 04 14:12
f13 jwb: the last build was from the first May 04 14:12
f13 jwb: so there are likely only commits from today May 04 14:12
wwoods there have been 35 commits since May 04 14:13
f13 anyway we know new anaconda stuff is coming May 04 14:13
f13 the real question is will there be enough time to fix enough of the problems. May 04 14:13
f13 We're supposed to start RC composes on the 12th, that's a week from tomorrow May 04 14:14
notting are composes scriptable? May 04 14:15
wwoods answering that requires a review of the blockers. May 04 14:15
notting or are we just stuck with testing rawhide for now? May 04 14:15
f13 not really May 04 14:15
f13 well I mean you can easily run pungi on your own May 04 14:15
f13 but we're not in a place where we can do automated composes and sync to somewhere that we can get to it May 04 14:15
notting sure, but that's time && space && bandwidth May 04 14:15
f13 yep May 04 14:16
f13 the bandwidth cost is very little after the first run though May 04 14:16
f13 since you use cached data for subsequent runs May 04 14:16
f13 Testing rawhide is the best thing though May 04 14:17
f13 composes are useful for testing things like split media installs, but those have been working well May 04 14:17
f13 and size issues, which is going to be a big concern, given ppc May 04 14:17
f13 we're probably going to have to find something big to shave off, a whole group or two May 04 14:17
jwb in the past we have used common ks files across all the arches May 04 14:17
jwb why can't we have a separate ppc ks? May 04 14:18
f13 we could, it just makes things more ... complicated May 04 14:18
jwb does it really? May 04 14:18
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f13 in theory yes. In practice it's not a huge difference. May 04 14:19
jwb i'm ignoring theory and politics May 04 14:19
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f13 if we got to a point where things were scriptable it would be more of a concern. May 04 14:19
f13 but since I'm doing everything by hand anyway, I'd just have to remember to point at a different config file for ppc (and maintain a different config file for ppc) May 04 14:19
jwb i can help with the latter part May 04 14:20
jwb if we really want to stick with one, that's fine May 04 14:21
jwb ppc just hits space issues first May 04 14:21
jwb so arguably by fixing it for that, we prevent x86_64 from going over at the same time May 04 14:21
f13 yeah, if we have to fix it for ppc, we're not far off from having to fix it for x86_64 May 04 14:21
f13 it's just that ppc eats up considerably more space in isofs overhead May 04 14:21
f13 er, bootable isofs overhead May 04 14:22
f13 so anyway, we know we need to fix that. May 04 14:27
f13 and review blocker list May 04 14:27
f13 and continue tagging/signing things May 04 14:27
jwb continue? May 04 14:27
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jwb in the signing case i mean May 04 14:27
f13 and work out the kinks in delta generation May 04 14:27
f13 and figure out how to create deltas for updates May 04 14:27
f13 I've been signing everything yes. May 04 14:27
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jwb ok. so skvidal is going to look at the required packages for deltas May 04 14:28
jwb i think he can use app1 for mucking with things first, and then i guess we'll take a leap of faith and throw it on releng2? May 04 14:28
f13 I haven't seen the proposal but... sure! May 04 14:29
jwb what proposal? May 04 14:29
jwb it requires updates to yum, createrepo, and deltarpm May 04 14:30
f13 of what you're trying to do May 04 14:30
jwb then changes to mash configs in bodhi May 04 14:30
f13 honestly I'd rather see bodhi use mock to mash May 04 14:30
jwb hell, so would i. you think that is going to happen before f11? May 04 14:30
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f13 I honestly don't know. I think that depends on how much lmacken we get. May 04 14:31
f13 spot: ping; how much lmacken can we get for this? May 04 14:31
jwb we lack a sandbox test environment as well May 04 14:31
f13 alright so that's a concern. May 04 14:34
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jwb yes May 04 14:35
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f13 so lots of work to do and little time to do it. May 04 14:35
f13 anything else anybody would like to add/talk about? May 04 14:35
jwb f13, we're going with one key, right? May 04 14:36
f13 yes May 04 14:36
notting in lieu of poelstra showing up, i'll bang his drum - f12 schedule approval discussion? May 04 14:36
jwb cool May 04 14:36
jwb notting, where is it? May 04 14:36
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f13 .rel 1271 May 04 14:37
zodbot f13: #1271 (Fedora 12 Schedule) - Fedora Release Engineering - Trac - May 04 14:37
notting so, that's an alpha freeze 7 weeks from now May 04 14:38
f13 hrm. May 04 14:38
f13 something wild and off the cuff. May 04 14:38
rdieter no rest for the wicked May 04 14:38
f13 what if we cut out alpha as a freeze/release point for F12, and go straight through to beta? May 04 14:39
jwb please May 04 14:39
f13 maybe pause along the way to do a torrent only live image snapshot May 04 14:39
jwb 'devel snapshots' May 04 14:39
f13 (and if it works well, keep doing that for future releases) May 04 14:40
notting f13: hm, that has the virtue of never being tried May 04 14:40
f13 notting: I've been trying to reduce the number of freezes/releases for a while now May 04 14:40
f13 unsuccessfully May 04 14:40
jwb sort of. alpha has been a non-blocking freeze for a couple releases now, right? May 04 14:40
notting f13: might have to tweak the beta dates a bit May 04 14:40
f13 alpha being a non-blocking freeze has helped somewhat, but still draws a lot of attention away during critical development time May 04 14:41
jwb attention from whome? May 04 14:41
jwb er, whom May 04 14:41
notting installer May 04 14:41
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f13 installer, qa, releng May 04 14:41
f13 we end up focusing on week+ old bits for far too long May 04 14:41
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jwb ok May 04 14:41
notting it may help them to get more uniterrupted devel time without having to break to make a working milestone in the middle May 04 14:41
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jwb notting, at the slight risk of less testing? May 04 14:42
f13 yeah, in combination with more focused day to day testing May 04 14:42
f13 instead of "wait for alpha" testing May 04 14:42
pjones fewer freezes/releases would certainly be nice. May 04 14:42
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*skvidal reads scrollback May 04 14:43
jwb skvidal, you popped up in the deltarpm stuff May 04 14:43
f13 hehe, now we have a subject that gets people interested May 04 14:43
skvidal ? May 04 14:43
skvidal I'm working on the pkgs needed now May 04 14:43
jwb f13, i'm good with no alpha. need to run it past fesco May 04 14:44
skvidal I'll try them out on app1.stg May 04 14:44
notting f13: so, if we did that, and just removed that section of the schedule, what's your opinion on the rest of the milestones as posted? May 04 14:44
jwb skvidal, f13 would rather see bodhi mash in a chroot if possible May 04 14:44
skvidal okay May 04 14:44
skvidal so then that's over to lmacken? May 04 14:44
jwb skvidal, which... right May 04 14:44
jwb skvidal, also would arguably require more time May 04 14:44
skvidal so what's the call? May 04 14:45
jwb skvidal, i think we're waiting on spot to tell us how much lmacken time we get? May 04 14:45
skvidal no deltas on f11 or should I pursue making the pkgs? May 04 14:45
skvidal ok, sounds fair to me May 04 14:45
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jwb f13, fallback is update releng2 or punt for f11? May 04 14:46
skvidal OR May 04 14:46
f13 notting: I have some concern around final freeze and preview May 04 14:46
skvidal we don't have it for F11-GA + zero-day updates but we do have it during the F11 cycle May 04 14:47
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jwb skvidal, also possible. i'm assuming yum would cope just fine May 04 14:47
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f13 notting: RH summit is about 2 weeks before the final freeze, and LinuxCon + Linux Plumbers Conference is the week after the freeze May 04 14:48
skvidal jwb: yes, if the presto md is not there it just doesn't use it May 04 14:48
notting f13: there's always something May 04 14:48
notting but yeah May 04 14:48
notting f13: not sure how we avoid that without slipping somewhere May 04 14:49
f13 notting: ship Nov 3 instead of Oct 27 May 04 14:49
jwb 9 month cycle May 04 14:49
*jwb ducks May 04 14:49
notting jwb: 40 weeks? May 04 14:49
f13 basically move the finalfreeze + preview dates out a week May 04 14:49
notting then we can talk about f13 being in its second trimester May 04 14:49
jwb i like it May 04 14:49
f13 *cough* May 04 14:50
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notting f13: wouldn't that make the final freeze the week *of* lpc/lc? May 04 14:50
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f13 notting: yes, the freeze would happen while at the event, which is easy to do May 04 14:51
notting that's the pre-preview final freeze, right? May 04 14:52
f13 LinuxCon is over on the 23rd, the day after the freeze May 04 14:52
f13 yeah May 04 14:52
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notting wwoods: as an interested observer, you have not commented May 04 14:53
f13 We'd have the entire week after LinuxCon/LinuxPlumbers to compose/stage/sync May 04 14:53
f13 well "entire week" == Mon/Tues/Wed/Thur May 04 14:53
*wwoods catching up on scrollback May 04 14:53
wwoods so are we discussing Alpha or Presto at the moment? May 04 14:54
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notting wwoods: f12 schedule May 04 14:54
jwb wwoods, back to f12 schedule. sorry May 04 14:54
wwoods gotcha May 04 14:54
notting and the possibility of killing alpha (before it comes back and slices us all up) May 04 14:54
wwoods I'm fine with killing Alpha May 04 14:55
f13 we pretty much did our own alpha testing anyway May 04 14:55
notting ok, so proposal: poelstra's schedule @, with the following changes: May 04 14:55
wwoods I'd feel less evil if we called the first post-feature-freeze milestone "Alpha" and the subsequent milestone "Beta" May 04 14:55
notting 1) alpha section removed May 04 14:55
wwoods having an Alpha where it's not required to even have any of the planned features *present* is ludicrous May 04 14:56
notting 2) all dates from "final freeze: development" onwards shifted one week later May 04 14:56
f13 notting: that seems pretty reasonable to me, particularly for the short release. May 04 14:57
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f13 good enough to pitch at the public for more date tweaking if there are events we don't know about May 04 14:57
notting ok. i'll take it to fesco this week May 04 14:57
notting wwoods: not sure beta -> alpha, preview -> beta makes sense, given the freeze state at preview May 04 14:58
f13 ok, we're near the hour mark. Any other topics for discussion? May 04 14:59
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wwoods notting: true. No worries - removing the Alpha release also fixes the "Alpha is a big fat lie" problem May 04 15:00
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f13 Looks like not. Time to call it a meeting. Thanks all. May 04 15:02
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---f13 has changed the topic to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See for meeting schedule May 04 15:02

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