QA/Meetings/20100628

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Contents

Attendees

People present (lines said):

Regrets:

Agenda

Previous meeting follow-up

  1. adamw to forward wwoods a good explanation of the nss-softokn problem scenario to ensure autoqa catches it in future
    See https://fedorahosted.org/pipermail/autoqa-devel/2010-June/000703.html
  2. wwoods to evaluate nss-softokn dependency problem for proper 'depcheck' coverage
  3. Viking-Ice will start 'how to debug systemd problems' guide and send to list for review
    See User:Johannbg/QA/Systemd
  4. robatino to ask infrastructure team to archive previous RCs/TCs
    fedora-infrastructure ticket#2241
  5. jlaska to review F14 test day wiki content
    QA/Fedora_14_test_days, Talk:QA/Fedora_14_test_days, Category:Fedora_14_Test_Days
  6. jlaska to create a ticket about possible enhancement/new test case for ABI stability check
    autoqa ticket#190
  7. jlaska to cleanup (or remove) the Critical Path Packages#Background section so that it provides _some_ value

F14 QA Recommendations

Owner - User:Jlaska
Summary
Jlaska organized Fedora_13_QA_Retrospective feedback into a list of QA recommendations for Fedora 14.
Jlaska filed tickets for improvements, see https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/milestone/Fedora%2014
Next steps...
  1. If you are looking for a way to get involved in Fedora QA ... start here
  2. Don't see something you'd like to work on ... Create fedora-qa ticket

Proventester Update

Owner - User:Maxamillion, User:Adamwill
Summary
Adam Miller announced that the proventesters wiki page (QA/JoinProvenTesters) is no longer a draft.
There are several TRAC requests to join the proventesters group.
User:Adamwill drafted proventester instructions and sent to the list for review.
Next steps

AutoQA

Automate Package Update Acceptance Test Plan

Owner - User:wwoods
Summary
The immediate goal is to automate the QA:Package_Update_Acceptance_Test_Plan. The team met and discussed task priorities and agreed on the following prioritization
Next steps...
  • jlaska working with infrastructure on several tasks
  1. fedora-infrastructure ticket#2221 - route http://autoqa.fedoraproject.org -> qa01
  2. fedora-infrastructure ticket#2230 - create mysql database for autotest on db1
  3. fedora-infrastructure ticket#2242 = Limit access to test systems qa01.c.fp.org through qa06.c.fp.org
  4. jlaska - set up another private virtual autotest-server
  5. jlaska - find a machine where resultdb may run (it can be VM, publicly accessible preferred)
  6. jskladan, wwoods - bodhi hook needs to be tested -- autoqa ticket#87
  7. autoqa ticket#195 - Create a helloworld test for use with testing hook
  8. standardization of hook argument names will be discussed soon

Resultdb

Owner - User:jskladan
Summary
autoqa ticket#145
Test instance up'n'running on one of our machines
Rewrote initscripts & rpmlint tests (see jskladan branch in autoqa git) so they store the result data inside.
Next steps...
  1. Finish updating other tests to store results in resultdb
  2. Setup autotest-server instance to use these tests
  3. Once results are posted into resultsdb ... start working on a front-end

Labels

Owner - User:kparal
Summary
autoqa ticket#181 - Implement *quick* virtualization support to allow for destructive tests
Kparal created a labels git branch to track development (see [https://fedorahosted.org/pipermail/autoqa-devel/2010-June/000742.html
announcement])
Next steps...
  1. Determine format of labels to use (see [https://fedorahosted.org/pipermail/autoqa-devel/2010-June/000740.html
discussion])
  1. Complete script to help manage virtual guests that will be used by the labels

Open discussion - <Your topic here>

colleges to help testing

Owner - User:j_dulaney
Summary
idea: get various small technical and comunity colleges to help with testing
Next steps ...
  1. dulaney will ask if the instructor's interested, and point to the QA/Join page for ideas - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Join
  2. Adamw offered QA help if there are any questions or interest

Knowledge base

Owner - User:jkeating
Summary
Jkeating asked the group if a Fedora Knowledge Base would be useful to your efforts?
The team discussed the idea of a knowledge base, but there wasn't anything tangible to offer feedback on
Next steps ...
  1. Continue to refine the idea/proposal

Upcoming QA events

  • 2010-07-08 - Pre-Alpha Rawhide Acceptance Test Plan #1
  • 2010-07-15 - Pre-Alpha Rawhide Acceptance Test Plan #2
  • 2010-07-22 - Pre-Alpha Rawhide Acceptance Test Plan #3
  • 2010-07-23 - Alpha Blocker Meeting (f14alpha) #1
  • 2010-07-30 - Alpha Blocker Meeting (f14alpha) #2

Action items

  1. jlaska to cleanup (or remove) the Critical Path Packages#Background section so that it provides _some_ value
  2. j_dulaney to draft a combined proventesters / joinproventesters wiki page for list review
  3. wwoods to evaluate nss-softokn dependency problem for proper 'depcheck' coverage

IRC Transcript

jlaska #startmeeting Fedora QA Meeting 14:59
zodbot Meeting started Mon Jun 28 14:59:56 2010 UTC. The chair is jlaska. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:59
zodbot Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 14:59
jlaska #meetingname fedora-qa 14:59
zodbot The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa' 14:59
jlaska #chair kparal 15:00
zodbot Current chairs: jlaska kparal 15:00
jlaska #topic Gathering critical mass 15:00
* jskladan steps out of the shadows :) 15:00
* kparal looks around 15:00
* wwoods puts down his beer^Wcoffee 15:00
jlaska jskladan: kparal: greetings 15:00
jlaska wwoods: it's noon somewhere :) 15:01
hicham i d highly suggest to add the eds mess 15:01
hicham to the agenda 15:01
* Viking-Ice stands since there are no chairs left! 15:01
wwoods hicham: why, exactly, is that a QA problem? 15:01
hicham wwoods: i think it is qa problem, since updates are now broken 15:01
jlaska hicham: you're welcome to bring up any QA suggestions related to that build during open discussion 15:01
wwoods hicham: yes, but we already have plans for tests in place to keep that sort of thing from happening 15:02
hicham wwoods: ah ok, thanks 15:02
wwoods in the meantime it's still up to developers to *not* mess up the deps in the repos 15:02
wwoods and they keep doing it 15:02
wwoods this does not change our plans any 15:02
wwoods nor is it our fault that it keeps happening 15:03
adamw morningalydoodly 15:03
jlaska hicham: for offline reading enjoyment ... https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Package_Update_Acceptance_Test_Plan 15:03
jlaska adamw: welcome 15:03
jlaska Viking-Ice: lurking? 15:03
Viking-Ice Yup 15:03
jlaska hey there 15:03
jlaska alrighty, let's get movin' 15:03
wwoods I completely understand the frustration though 15:03
jlaska I'm going to breeze through the follow-up items ... I've got details on most of them ... 15:04
jlaska #topic Previous meeting follow-up 15:04
jlaska #info adamw to forward wwoods a good explanation of the nss-softokn problem scenario to ensure autoqa catches it in future 15:04
jlaska #link https://fedorahosted.org/pipermail/autoqa-devel/2010-June/000703.html 15:04
jlaska next up ... 15:04
jlaska wwoods: you were out last week, so surprise, I added an agenda item for you! 15:05
wwoods haa 15:05
jlaska queue the balloons and streamers 15:05
wwoods hooray! lucky winner! 15:05
jlaska wwoods: dunno if you have any updates, since this might be the first you saw of it ... 15:05
jlaska #info wwoods to evaluate nss-softokn dependency problem for proper 'depcheck' coverage 15:05
wwoods I don't recall the explanation of the exact dep problem 15:05
jlaska wwoods: we can follow-up on autoqa-devel list ... checkout the description adamw sent (see previous #link) 15:06
* skvidal recalls 15:06
* adamw re-assigned all his work to wwoods and went golfing 15:06
skvidal the nss-softokn thing was just a multilib issue iirc 15:06
adamw check your to-do list 15:06
hicham x86_64 version was older than i686 one 15:07
skvidal ie: the lib didn't get auto pulled in as multlib by mash for the update 15:07
skvidal but it did get pulled in for the GA 15:07
skvidal hicham: right 15:07
jlaska I think the only action here is to review whether this is something depcheck would have captured 15:07
adamw skvidal: as jlaska says i already sent a description to autoqa-devel list 15:07
skvidal adamw: sorry 15:07
adamw npnp :) 15:07
jlaska wwoods: okay taking this to the list? 15:07
wwoods yeah, that's fine 15:07
* jlaska has Michael McDonald in his head now 15:07
jlaska wwoods: thx 15:08
jlaska next up ... 15:08
jlaska #info Viking-Ice will start 'how to debug systemd problems' guide and send to list for review 15:08
wwoods quick summary: we'll want to write test case for that situation - and all the other common "your repos asplode" problems 15:08
Viking-Ice yup have started to work on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Johannbg/QA/Systemd#Quick_Debugging_Tips 15:08
jlaska Viking-Ice: I see you've already got quite a bit of content 15:08
jlaska #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Johannbg/QA/Systemd#Quick_Debugging_Tips 15:08
j_dulaney Crap, was in the head too long 15:08
jlaska jskladan: welcome :) 15:09
jlaska Viking-Ice: very nice ... anything you want to follow-up with next week ... or should we stay tuned to test@ mailing list 15:09
Viking-Ice We hit a bit of snag at work this last week so the work got a bit halted + I still have not contacted Lennart about several things. 15:09
Viking-Ice I will post the page for the list for review once I'm done 15:10
jlaska Viking-Ice: awesome, thanks again for tackling this 15:10
Viking-Ice has releng got any plans on when we will switch to use systemd by default 15:10
jlaska up next ... 15:10
jlaska #info robatino to ask infrastructure team to archive previous RCs/TCs 15:10
jlaska #link http://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/2241 15:10
jlaska I haven't seen any updates on this yet, we may wish to reach out to infrastructure@ list also 15:11
jlaska next ... 15:11
jlaska #info jlaska to review F14 test day wiki content 15:11
jlaska Nothing earth shattering here, just priming the wiki content for F14 test days 15:11
jlaska #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Fedora_14_test_days 15:11
jlaska If anyone has ideas or suggestions, feel free to write them down on the talk page -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:QA/Fedora_14_test_days 15:12
jlaska next ... 15:12
jlaska #info jlaska to create a ticket about possible enhancement/new test case for ABI stability check 15:12
jlaska #link http://fedorahosted.org/autoqa/ticket/190 15:12
jlaska that's been queued up for the copious spare time we all have lurking just around the corner! 15:12
jlaska and last ... 15:12
jlaska #info jlaska to cleanup (or remove) the Critical Path Packages#Background section so that it provides _some_ value 15:12
jlaska I looked at this briefly, but don't have any new content to offer yet 15:13
jlaska this should only take a minute or two though ... will knock this out for next week 15:13
jlaska #action jlaska to cleanup (or remove) the Critical Path Packages#Background section so that it provides _some_ value 15:13
jlaska okay ... time for the main event 15:13
jlaska #topic Fedora 14 QA Recommendations 15:14
jlaska You're probably getting tire of me saying it by now P) 15:14
* Oxf13 peeks in 15:14
jlaska Oxf13: howdy 15:14
jlaska so I'm just about done with filing tickets for the recommendations wiki 15:14
jlaska #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_QA_Retrospective#Recommendations 15:15
j_dulaney An idea: get various small technical and comunity colleges to help with testing 15:15
jlaska there are a few more that I've not yet filed ... but the bulk is complete 15:15
adamw i guess we should make sure all the tickets are assigned appropriately? 15:15
jlaska adamw: yup, I'm going to take this off the list ... and the next step is we get to work the queue 15:15
adamw j_dulaney: there's an open floor section at the end of the meeting, can you raise it there? thanks. just keeps things on track =) 15:15
jlaska #info Next step, start to work the ticket queue ... https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/milestone/Fedora%2014 15:16
Oxf13 A little late, but due to some internal communication, I want to ask this group if they thought a Fedora Knowledge Base would be useful to your efforts? 15:16
Oxf13 as a recommendation for future Fedora releases. 15:16
* jlaska adds to open-floor ideas 15:16
jlaska last point here ... if there is something you were itching to work on for Fedora 14 QA ... and there isn't a ticket 15:17
jlaska not to worry :) Just file a ticket and start workin' 15:17
jlaska Oxf13: btw ... I think that was down as a wishlist topic ... checking ... 15:18
Oxf13 ok 15:18
jlaska Oxf13: same general idea ... "jlaska - Pony - some web tool to help collaborative problem debugging. Similar to http://answers.yahoo.com/ perhaps? " 15:18
Oxf13 k 15:18
jlaska definitely filed under my pony category :) 15:18
jlaska but "knowledge base" might be a more appropriate title 15:19
jlaska okay ... any other comments on the retrospective or recommendations? 15:19
jlaska I'm not planning on including this topic in future meetings 15:19
adamw nup, just good job, thanks :) 15:19
jlaska thanks all for the feedback, I hope I captured a manageable set of tasks for us on F14 15:20
jlaska #topic Proventester update 15:20
jlaska adamw: I have this as a running meeting topic, but I don't know if there are any updates this week 15:20
adamw nothing much has happened. really we're waiting on bodhi now. 15:21
adamw the only thing i considered is adding some instructions for mentors as well as instructions for testers. 15:21
jlaska adamw: nice, so that means the proventester instructions dafrito and you worked on are complete? 15:21
j_dulaney It seems the Wiki entry could be cleaned up a bit 15:21
adamw i suppose it's worth nothing that the eds debacle gives a very clear indication of the need for this testing =) 15:21
jlaska #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Proven_tester 15:21
j_dulaney Or I should say, made clearer 15:21
adamw jlaska: well, i can't see any way to improve them 15:21
adamw j_dulaney: which wiki entry, and what do you suggest could be improved? 15:22
jlaska adamw: nice, I call that complete! :D 15:22
adamw jlaska: either that or i suck, yep =) 15:22
j_dulaney adamw: preoventester 15:22
adamw the page jlaska just linked to? 15:22
j_dulaney Indeed 15:23
adamw what do you suggest changing? 15:23
j_dulaney I'm thinking a little more on the mentoring and approval process 15:24
jlaska j_dulaney: ah, I think something adamw mentioned he might like to see. We'd welcome any content to get things started 15:25
adamw note that there is also the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/JoinProvenTesters page 15:25
adamw we should probably clean up the naming of both pages to be more co-operative 15:25
j_dulaney Indeed. I seem to have missed that 15:25
j_dulaney Maybe combine them? 15:26
adamw possibly 15:26
j_dulaney The joinproventesters seems rather short to have its own entry 15:26
adamw we can basically choose to have one big 'everything about proven testers' page, or probably three separate pages for process, joining, mentoring 15:26
adamw one page is a nice simple concept, i just would want to make sure it doesn't get too long and hard to follow 15:27
* adamw 's sworn enemy is the eye-glaze effect ;) 15:27
jlaska I know that enemy 15:27
adamw otherwise known as tl;dr 15:27
j_dulaney That's why I tend to print :) 15:28
adamw (took me years to figure out what that meant) 15:28
j_dulaney Read through long bits of code, much? 15:28
Oxf13 this is where you really wish for "collapsable" sections in mediawiki 15:28
Oxf13 collapse all the sections by default except for the common top section, then expand the sub-sections as desired, for each of joining / mentoring 15:29
adamw yeah, that would be ideal 15:29
* ianweller peeks in 15:29
jlaska Oxf13: I think rhe found an option that might be available to anyone interested 15:29
adamw jlaska: i thought that was tables? 15:29
jlaska in fact, I think ianweller helped with adding the collapse css 15:29
jlaska adamw: yeah, but I believe there is similar support for <div>'s too 15:30
ianweller yeah i added css/javascript for collapsing tables 15:30
jlaska but I could definitely be *wrong* 15:30
jlaska rhe would know best 15:30
jlaska or of course our wiki master ... ianweller 15:30
adamw j_dulaney: it's something i try to avoid ;) 15:30
jlaska but anyway ... adamw j_dulaney: anything you guys want to try on the wiki for next week? 15:30
j_dulaney jlaska: Sure 15:31
adamw j_dulaney: if you could make a separate draft of a combined page in your personal space on the wiki and send it to the list for comments that'd be awesome 15:31
j_dulaney adamw: Indeed 15:31
adamw i'd like to know what aaron thinks too since he did such an awesome job on the proventesters page 15:31
jlaska good point! 15:31
adamw (aaron = dafrito, not sure if he's around) 15:32
jlaska grab and #action items you want ... otherwise, I'll keep this #topic on the agenda for our next meeting 15:32
adamw #action j_dulaney to draft a combined proventesters / joinproventesters wiki page for list review 15:33
jlaska ianweller: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NavFrame 15:33
j_dulaney #grab draft 15:34
j_dulaney Got it, will do 15:34
ianweller jlaska: i saw that, but it's not really making collapsible sections automaticaly 15:34
ianweller i can't spell today 15:34
jlaska ianweller: yeah, you're right 15:34
adamw ianweller: hey, at least you didn't say automagically 15:35
adamw there's a word that makes me want to punch things 15:35
* jlaska notes :) 15:35
jlaska okay, thanks adamw and j_dulaney 15:35
jlaska (and of course dafrito) 15:35
jlaska next up ... 15:35
j_dulaney the dude that taught me to program did things magically 15:35
adamw unless his name was otto, you're good 15:36
jlaska kparal: I just joined this other meeting, do you mind taking the #chair from here? 15:36
adamw (thank you, thank you, i'm here all week) 15:36
jlaska tip your waiter 15:36
kparal jlaska: sure 15:36
j_dulaney Wish I could afford to go somewhere with a waiter 15:36
* kparal looking for agenda 15:36
jlaska kparal: I asked wwoods to drive the autoqa update for today 15:37
adamw hey, denny's has waiters. technically. 15:37
kparal so, we can hop on the AutoQA, right? 15:37
jlaska kparal: yeah, that's next 15:37
kparal #topic AutoQA update 15:37
kparal wwoods: you have the mic! 15:37
wwoods HELLO FEDORA QA 15:38
wwoods ARE YOU READY TO ROOOOOOCK 15:38
wwoods ahem sorry. 15:38
kparal *applaud 15:38
j_dulaney I've already got some Godsmack going 15:38
jlaska haha 15:38
adamw WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 15:38
wwoods so last week we (finally) got the post-bodhi-update hook merged 15:38
chenrano2002 gogogogo 15:38
* adamw jumps on someone's head 15:38
adamw yay 15:39
jlaska welcome chenrano2002! 15:39
wwoods we're working on a new 'helloworld' test to make sure the bodhi-watcher and autoqa hook are working properly 15:39
chenrano2002 yes, I'm here:) 15:39
j_dulaney in what language? 15:39
kparal #info post-bodhi-update hook is merged 15:39
wwoods the target is, of course, the 'depcheck' test 15:39
wwoods which should check all new proposed updates for dependency breakage 15:39
kparal #info 'helloworld' test is a new big task now ;) 15:40
wwoods and refuse to let rel-eng move packages that might break the repos 15:40
chenrano2002 helloworld is really needed for newbie, I hope to see it 15:40
adamw *fanfare* 15:40
wwoods but that's a complex test that will require help from infrastructure/releng to set up properly 15:40
j_dulaney Where can I go to read up on autoqa? 15:41
wwoods so the helloworld test (written in python, like all the autoqa stuff) is what we'll use to test out the new hook. 15:41
wwoods https://fedorahosted.org/autoqa/ is where the code lives 15:41
j_dulaney Roger 15:41
wwoods https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/AutoQA is where the wiki docs are 15:41
kparal ok, thanks wwoods 15:42
kparal anything else from your end? 15:42
jlaska wwoods: what can I help with to complete that helloworld? 15:42
jlaska I think you and kparal had some run_once() suggestions ... just combine those and test? 15:42
wwoods there's more autoqa stuff going on, but I think kparal & jskladan will have more to say about that 15:42
kparal jlaska: I believe so 15:42
wwoods jlaska: yeah - go for the quick-n-dirty-and-simple test and just dump locals() 15:43
jlaska kparal: wwoods: (helloworld) ... okay thanks, I'll update the ticket 15:43
* Viking-Ice starts Moshing. . . . 15:43
wwoods in the next week or two we might have a discussion about standardizing hook argument names, or tweaking the convention for passing hook args 15:43
wwoods but don't let that stop you from getting helloworld working now. 15:43
kparal #topic AutoQA update - resultdb 15:43
jlaska at first, helloworld will just work with post-bodhi-update? 15:43
kparal er 15:43
kparal #topic AutoQA update 15:44
jlaska kparal: sorry ... keep going, I'll follow-up with you guys on fedora-qa after 15:44
* kparal misclicked 15:44
kparal #info standardization of hook argument names will be discussed soon 15:44
chenrano2002 kaparal can't wait to share his idea:) 15:44
kparal jlaska: I believe helloworld should work for any hook 15:45
kparal it will be just a generic test that will print out incoming arguments 15:45
kparal that's all 15:45
kparal and reports success :) 15:45
jlaska kparal: right, just didn't know how far you guys wanted me to go with this 15:45
jlaska but I'll hold off the standardization of hook args for later 15:46
j_dulaney No pretty stuff on screen? 15:46
kparal maybe it could draw a pony 15:46
j_dulaney YAY 15:46
kparal alright, ready for jskladan's update? 15:46
kparal #topic AutoQA update - resultdb 15:46
jskladan well, updates on the ResultsDB front - i have a testing instance up'n'running on one of our machines (kudos to jlaska & infrastracture team), i already rewrote initscripts & rpmlint tests (see jskladan branch in autoqa git) so they store the data inside. I'll finish the other tests during this week and will set up the testing autotest-server instance so it runs these tests :) 15:46
adamw sounds nice! 15:47
kparal #info resultdb running on our staging server 15:47
jskladan so stay tuned for the magical tool being filled with data :) 15:47
jskladan and once there is some reasonable specimen 15:47
jskladan we can start working on some frontends 15:48
adamw is it magical and revolutionary? 15:48
kparal adamw: you bet 15:48
j_dulaney Can it make a cheesesteak appear in front of me? 15:48
jskladan so that's about it on the resultsDB for now :) 15:49
kparal ok, thanks jskladan 15:49
kparal #topic AutoQA update - autotest labels 15:49
kparal and now for something different 15:49
jskladan j_dulaney: only if you can pronounce the mighty words of power :)) 15:49
kparal I have created 'labels' branch that contains patched autoqa that can use autotest labels properly 15:50
kparal at least I hope so 15:50
j_dulaney jskladan: I know not this heavy wizardry, yet 15:50
kparal announcement here 15:50
kparal #link https://fedorahosted.org/pipermail/autoqa-devel/2010-June/000742.html 15:50
kparal we should now be able to specify "this test must run on Fedora 12", even dynamically 15:50
wwoods hooray! 15:50
adamw shiny! 15:50
wwoods that was a big missing piece for a while, this is totally awesome 15:51
kparal and we're now discussing best names for our labels: 15:51
kparal #link https://fedorahosted.org/pipermail/autoqa-devel/2010-June/000740.html 15:51
wwoods does it just look for an existing machine that matches the labels, or can we actually spin up VMs as needed? 15:51
kparal wwoods: it doesn't check for anything, it just schedules the job and atest takes care of the rest 15:52
kparal if there is no machine matching that label, I guess it stays scheduled indefinitely 15:52
kparal there are certainly areas for improvement :) 15:52
kparal I still have to test is properly 15:52
j_dulaney So, how would I go about getting my machines talking to it all? 15:53
kparal #info autotest labels can now be used when patched autoqa from 'labels' branch is used 15:53
wwoods j_dulaney: at this point, you don't. Although you can certainly run the tests at home if you like 15:53
kparal I'm also working on a script that will ease VM installation for us, that's a second thing. I want to use it for my 'labels' testing 15:54
kparal alright, that's from me 15:54
adamw and you can set up your own autoqa server also. since, y'know, we're showing it's so damn easy ;) 15:54
j_dulaney woods: right 15:54
kparal #topic Open discussion <your topic here> 15:55
kparal now type your ideas 15:55
adamw we've had two mentioned earlier already 15:55
adamw i believe j_dulaney was first 15:55
kparal ok, what was the name of the idea? 15:55
* kparal scrolls back 15:55
kparal j_dulaney: An idea: get various small technical and comunity colleges to help with testing 15:56
kparal #topic Open discussion - colleges to help testing 15:56
j_dulaney I was thinking of getting IT type classes at said colleges to do some of the testing for us 15:56
adamw we've actually had one case of that already 15:56
kparal j_dulaney: so what do you suggest should be done and how can you help? :) 15:57
adamw vedran miletic teaches classes at a university, and he integrates Bugzappers into that; we've helped him out with having his students do some triage work a couple of times 15:57
adamw it is a neat system 15:57
wwoods is there a school you're in touch with where you could start such a program? 15:57
wwoods oh cool so there's some documented prior work on how to do this stuff? 15:58
j_dulaney at the local community college, I know the instructer that teaches the appropriate class 15:58
j_dulaney I can't think of what said class is called at the moment, massive brain fart here 15:59
j_dulaney Anyway, I'm sure he'd be happy to have his students try to break applications once in a while. 15:59
adamw well for sure ask if the instructor's interested, and point to the QA/Join page for ideas - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Join 15:59
j_dulaney Roger that 16:00
adamw if they'd like to try any of that stuff we can certainly arrange to help them out 16:00
kparal ok, if you have some contacts, try to lure them to us, sounds good :) 16:00
j_dulaney I could also do the same thing at the local high school when class starts back up this fall 16:00
adamw yup 16:01
kparal ok, thanks 16:01
kparal what was the other idea? 16:01
kparal #topic Open discussion <your topic here> 16:01
* jraber wonders if anyone has heard an update regarding bug 552423 It is a COMMONBUG, but the last time I checked it was the only COMMONBUG with no workaround or planned fix 16:01
kparal .bug 552423 16:02
zodbot kparal: Bug 552423 [abrt] crash in gnome-panel (/usr/libexec/wnck-applet @ wncklet_connect_while_alive / wncklet.c:183) - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=552423 16:02
adamw kparal: it was from oxf13 regarding a knowledge base 16:02
kparal #topic Open discussion - Knowledge base 16:03
adamw personally i hate the damn things, like i hate any large aggregation of likely-to-change-rapidly information without good mechanisms for staying up to date... 16:04
kparal ok, so tell me what's the difference between knowledge base and a wiki? :) 16:04
j_dulaney Microsoft's sucks 16:04
j_dulaney Indeed, it is often useless 16:04
adamw a well organized wiki is more granular and hence tends to have a better 'ownership' stake 16:04
chenrano2002 newers need docs, so is it possible to convert/public useful wiki to PDF format for reading locally? 16:05
adamw in a good wiki, some person/people or group is clearly the owner of a given page and should update it 16:05
kparal what would be the benefit of a knowledge base for us then? 16:05
adamw yeah, i'm struggling 16:05
adamw Oxf13: is there any more detail on the idea? 16:05
adamw what's the proposed format/content of the knowledge base? how is it differentiated from the wiki? how would it be written/maintained? 16:05
kparal thanks for formulating those questions, adamw 16:06
* jlaska back 16:06
* kparal gives jlaska the throne back 16:07
j_dulaney I myself rather enjoy the idea of PDFs for basic stuff, but then one can just save the Wiki page 16:07
jlaska kparal: no sir ... take us to the end :) 16:07
jlaska don't want to distrupt the flow as much as I already have 16:07
kparal we're just struggling with finding differences between knowledge base and wiki 16:08
jlaska I don't know if there was anything actionable with this topic 16:08
kparal alright, seems Oxf13 is away, we can discuss it next time 16:08
kparal #topic Open discussion <your topic here> 16:08
adamw sure 16:08
kparal anything else anyone? 16:09
Oxf13 sorry I was on another call. 16:09
adamw ah 16:09
Oxf13 adamw: basically the idea of having a Fedora KB has been kicked around by a couple people, and before we put any resources into it, we have to make sure there will be somebody to consume/contribute to it, so that it'll be useful use of our resources. 16:09
kparal #topic Open discussion - Knowledge base 16:10
adamw are there answers to the above question? 16:10
adamw questions* 16:10
jlaska adamw: nothing here ... let's come back to this when there is something more tangible 16:10
jlaska I think it could be a compelling discussion ... if there is a proposal or existing solution etc.. ?? 16:11
kparal #topic Open discussion <your topic here> 16:11
jlaska my $0.02 at least 16:11
jraber regarding bug 552423, if nobody has an update, should I ping the maintainer? (should I save this for the bugzappers meeting tomorrow?) 16:11
adamw if the idea is just 'something called a knowledge base' then i'd say, no, on the surface it seems to be just a duplication of the wiki and i can't see any added value. but we need more detail to provide sensible feedback. 16:11
kparal jraber: please raise this question in #fedora-qa channel 16:11
jlaska adamw: yup 16:11
kparal alright, let's wait a minute and then close this meeting if noone objects 16:12
j_dulaney I can think of nothing else 16:13
kparal thanks all for attending 16:13
kparal #endmeeting 16:13

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