QA/Meetings/20120924

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Contents

Attendees

  • adamw (141)
  • tflink (63)
  • dan408- (21)
  • jreznik (8)
  • nirik (6)
  • robatino (5)
  • zodbot (3)
  • Cerlyn (3)
  • maxamillion (3)
  • misc (2)
  • Southern_Gentlem (2)
  • spoore (1)
  • brunowolff (1)
  • jskladan (1)

Previous meeting follow-up

  • adamw to find out who's writing the release announcement and make sure it calls out the biggest Alpha bugs - this was done successfully
  • tflink to draft up a freeze entrance requirements proposal for the list and we can take the idea from there - tflink still working on quantifying freeze readiness
  • pschindl to kill 'uncategorized package groups' criterion - this got done and reported on the list
  • kparal to refine 'release-blocking package sets' criterion - this is still going on but it looks like we're pretty close
  • adamw to refine alpha partitioning criterion - adam didn't get around to this yet, sorry

Release criteria revision

  • Let's take a look at the whole Beta criteria list and try to get a set of Beta criteria we are happy with firmly enforcing:
    • adamw will propose partitioning criteria after discussion with anaconda team
    • tflink and adamw propose to replace the specific upgrade methods listed in the Beta upgrade criterion with the phrase "officially supported upgrade method(s)"
    • we agreed 'all kickstart delivery methods' criterion is possibly overstated, adamw will consider potential changes
    • tflink will ask other potentially interested parties to see if they think any of the Beta criteria need to be changed

Naming of TCs/RCs

  • We still don't have a proposed scheme that everyone loves, but we agree the goal is to come up with a TC/RC naming scheme as unlikely as possible to confuse people about what each build is

Open floor

  • tflink will be announcing a new release of the blocker bug tracking app (also known as Skynet) shortly

Action items

  • adamw to refine alpha partitioning criterion
  • adamw to draft new partitioning criterion for Beta once we know what will be in anaconda
  • adamw to consider revisions to 'kickstart delivery method' criterion
  • tflink to ask other interested parties (anaconda team, fesco...) to look over the beta criteria and see if there's anything they feel should be dialled down

IRC Log

adamw #startmeeting Fedora QA Meeting 15:02
zodbot Meeting started Mon Sep 24 15:02:00 2012 UTC. The chair is adamw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:02
zodbot Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 15:02
adamw #meetingname fedora-qa 15:02
zodbot The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa' 15:02
adamw #topic roll call 15:02
* tflink is here 15:02
dan408- here somewhat 15:02
adamw who's about for a QA meeting? 15:02
brunowolff I'll be lurking for a little while, but have a work meeting soon. 15:02
dan408- ill be joining from the diner 15:03
dan408- providing my phone holds a decent charge 15:03
Cerlyn I'm hear to QA the QA meeting 15:03
adamw well I'm QA'ing your QA'ing of the QA meeting, and you spelled 'here' wrong 15:03
dan408- you can HEAR the QA meeting? 15:04
Cerlyn Clearly that's the fault of the IRC channel and not me. 15:04
dan408- do you have speech assistance turned on? 15:04
spoore oh that'd be sweet....can you assign different voices to different nicks? 15:04
dan408- i'll code that in to the next version of BitchX 15:05
Southern_Gentlem spoore, no but i am sure festival would love help to do that 15:05
adamw mine should sound like krusty the klown 15:06
adamw alrighty 15:06
* dan408- = apu 15:06
tflink looks like we're missing the brno folks - is today a holiday? 15:07
adamw dan408: I had you down as stan the coffin salesman from monkey island. 15:07
dan408- i had you down as marge.. 15:07
adamw tflink: i think someone said something about that on the internal list, let me see 15:07
adamw dan408: hehe 15:07
tflink adamw: the 28th is a holiday 15:08
adamw huh. they said fri 28 is a holiday 15:08
adamw yeah 15:08
adamw nothing about today 15:08
adamw maybe the network's down there? 15:08
misc nope 15:08
dan408- holiday is 1 week long! 15:08
adamw or they all finally decided to go get drunk instead of coming to the meeting? 15:08
jreznik only Friday is a free day here :) 15:08
misc adamw: or being drunk then coming to the meeting 15:09
adamw jreznik: can you go check if there's a QA team in the nearest gutter? :) 15:09
jreznik adamw: you can't get drunk here - there's still prohibition on going... 15:09
dan408- that's peculiar 15:09
jreznik hmm, seems like brno's qa guys are really drinking :) I don't see them :) 15:10
* maxamillion is here-ish (I swear every time I try to make this meeting something happens right in the middle .... going to try and stay focused today) 15:11
adamw grr 15:11
adamw the drives on this laptop are losing it, methinks 15:11
adamw well we'll get by as best we can without kparal and co., i guess 15:11
adamw #topic previous meeting follow-up 15:12
jreznik adamw: I pinged jskladan, seems like the only one online... 15:12
adamw "adamw to find out who's writing the release announcement and make sure it calls out the biggest Alpha bugs" - I done that, got the biggest stuff listed in the mail 15:12
adamw also thanks to bcotton who made sure it was in big red letters in lots of places 15:12
adamw #info "adamw to find out who's writing the release announcement and make sure it calls out the biggest Alpha bugs" - this was done successfully 15:13
jreznik adamw: yep, I asked him to be RED :) btw. thanks! good job 15:13
adamw " tflink to draft up a freeze entrance requirements proposal for the list and we can take the idea from there " 15:13
adamw tflink? 15:13
tflink I'm still struggling with a way to quantify freeze readiness 15:13
tflink I did do a smoketest build with post-alpha stable 15:13
adamw #info "tflink to draft up a freeze entrance requirements proposal for the list and we can take the idea from there" - tflink still working on quantifying freeze readiness 15:14
dan408- what is "post-alpha" stable these days? 15:14
tflink and I put together a list of components that could potentially cause beta to slip (according to the current release requirements) 15:14
dan408- 3.1 or 3? 15:14
adamw dan408: neither of those. 15:14
dan408- ok what 15:14
tflink https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Tflink/F18_alpha_smoketest1_results 15:14
adamw dan408: he means a build with all the stuff that's in stable now 15:14
* jskladan hides in the shadows 15:14
tflink I need to move that wiki page, though 15:15
dan408- okay i reinstalled last night, used 3 15:15
tflink it should be F18_beta 15:15
dan408- i heard something bad about 3.1 15:15
* dan408- double checks 15:15
adamw dan408: doesn't matter now anyhow, alpha is done. 15:15
jreznik tflink: also there's https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/946 - so we can talk about the criteria there with FESCo... they understand this ticket the same way 15:15
dan408- http://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/ <-- not here.. is it on the other mirror? 15:15
tflink If anyone has suggestions on realistic ways to measure release readiness other than 'all potential release blocking features must be testable', I'd love to hear them 15:16
tflink s/release readiness/freeze entrance readiness/ 15:16
dan408- tflink: how about just basic functionality and usability.. since the design is so radically different? 15:16
dan408- and i dont mean "should be able to install and xxx" 15:17
adamw dan408: it's not an official build of any kind so it's not mirrored 15:17
tflink dan408-: that's even more nebulous than what I have already :) 15:17
maxamillion and like clock work ... $dayjob duties call ... 15:17
jreznik dan408-: you have to define "basic functionality" and I think it should be based on beta release criteria 15:17
adamw maxam: hi, bye :) 15:17
maxamillion  ;) 15:17
adamw #info https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/946 is a ticket related to freeze entrance criteria topic 15:17
dan408- tflink: i can get detailed but im trying to keep it short and concise as i dress for work. 15:17
adamw shall we keep it for open floor, since we have other stuff to get through? 15:18
tflink the problem I'm having is defining "ready for freeze" without getting needlessly complicated or vague 15:18
tflink yeah, works for me 15:18
dan408- k brb 15:18
adamw tflink: now you know why all those criteria are so damn long =) 15:18
* tflink doesn't want to specify something that's ready for release - just something that has a chance of being released after a 2 week freeze 15:19
tflink adamw: I already knew the reason behind that :-P 15:19
adamw #info "pschindl to kill 'uncategorized package groups' criterion" - pschindl is not around today, but this got done and reported on the list 15:19
adamw #info "kparal to refine 'release-blocking package sets' criterion" - this is still going on but it looks like we're pretty close 15:20
adamw we've got a criteria topic coming up right after this so no need for discussion of any of these right now btw 15:20
adamw #info "adamw to refine alpha partitioning criterion" - I didn't get around to this yet, sorry 15:21
jreznik tflink: adamw: also for checking criteria it would be great to have some pre-TC image with latest anaconda & company... /me has to leave now, will be back in approx. 1 hour :( so lets hope for open floor still going on :) or #fedora-qa :D 15:21
adamw #action adamw to refine alpha partitioning criterion 15:21
adamw ok, anything I'm missing that we should follow up on from last week that's not in the agenda to come? 15:21
adamw #topic release criteria revision 15:23
adamw so I put this on the list mainly because we went on a long time last week and i thought there may be stuff people still wanted to bring up, about any of the existing proposals 15:23
adamw if everyone's broadly happy with the current proposals, i figured we could take a look at the current beta criteria together and see if any aside from the ones already undergoing revision might need changes 15:24
adamw welp, i guess that's what we're doing then =) 15:26
tflink jreznik_afk: that's what the beta smoketest image is for - it has the latest anaconda build (feature-wise, there was a rebuild for new glade) 15:26
adamw so it would obviously be good for Beta if we can stand confidently by the criteria we have instead of fudging as much as we did for alpha 15:27
tflink do we know what kinds of disk usage will be ready for beta (free space, etc.) 15:28
adamw so what i'm thinking there is we all take a look at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_18_Beta_Release_Criteria and see if there's any of those requirements we might need to change or loosen 15:28
adamw tflink: i don't yet, but that's definitely something we need to nail down 15:28
tflink that's one of the bigger potential fudges that I see 15:29
tflink that and what's going on with upgrade 15:29
adamw well we have little in the way of partitioning for beta 15:29
adamw but that's because the alpha criterion was quite strong before 15:29
tflink but the alpha release requirements still hold for beta 15:29
adamw now we're weakening the alpha one, we'll need a new beta one, but i did want to see what the beta partitioner will look like before drafting one 15:29
adamw right, but the alpha criteria is now just 'wiping an entire existing disk must work', remember. 15:30
adamw criterion* 15:30
tflink yeah, I was going off of what is currently in the wiki and what it used to be 15:30
adamw right, that's why i need to get the alpha change done, it keeps confusing people :/ 15:30
tflink under the assumption that we aren't going to release final with just full disk autopart 15:30
adamw #action adamw to draft new partitioning criterion for Beta once we know what will be in anaconda 15:30
adamw on upgrades, yeah, that's another significant one 15:31
adamw i think what we should change there is the text "either via preupgrade or by booting to the installer manually" 15:32
tflink from what I remember hearing, preupgrade is going to die and be replaced by a single upgrade mechanism 15:32
tflink something related to the current upgrade work 15:32
adamw it should say "using the officially recommended upgrade method" 15:32
adamw imho obviously 15:32
adamw since what we should really enforce at beta is that our 'official' upgrade method should work. 15:33
tflink s/method/method(s)/ but yeah, that's more flexible 15:33
adamw yeah. 15:33
adamw jumping back a bit there's also 7. and 8. 15:33
tflink do we have any ETAs on partitioning and upgrade? 15:33
adamw i could see us fudging on 7, though we've discussed its place quite heavily so maybe not 15:34
adamw and for 8. too, if some really obscure method didn't work 15:34
tflink alpha or beta 7 and 8? 15:34
adamw beta 15:34
tflink isn't serial console install working for the most part? 15:34
adamw ETAs, i don't right now, but we should definitely find out 15:34
adamw i dunno, i haven't tested it :) 15:34
tflink IIRC, that's the only working method of install for ppc and they've been mostly able to get serial working 15:35
tflink wait, that's text based. not serial 15:35
adamw right 15:35
adamw tbh 7. is probably OK, we seem pretty firm on having that one. 8 is more fudgeable i guess. 15:36
adamw and the other one that might be a candidate is 13. 15:36
tflink yeah, I'd be OK with weakening 8 for beta 15:36
adamw since it seems we don't really care as much about rescue mode as we did. 15:36
tflink and we don't know if LVM or RAID will be supported for install in beta 15:37
adamw 13 is rescue mode, not partitioning, note. 15:37
tflink yeah, but it talks about being able to detect and use LVM/RAID 15:37
tflink what are the other options for fixing a busted install w/o rescue mode? 15:38
adamw #info adamw/tfink propose to replace specific upgrade methods in the Beta upgrade criterion with 'officially supported upgrade method(s)' 15:38
adamw tflink: live image. 15:38
adamw either a fedora one or any one of the several that exist specifically for system rescue purposes... 15:38
tflink I can see some of the logic there, but do the lives have the right packages to re-install grub? 15:38
adamw all rescue mode really has going for it is a) you definitely have it right there and b) it auto-mounts your install in the correct hierarchy. but neither of those is really critical. 15:39
tflink I suppose they would since they install grub during install 15:39
adamw yeah, they have to. 15:39
tflink it just seems a little odd to require downloading of another iso if the install breaks 15:39
tflink rather than being able to use the same iso you installed from 15:39
adamw mounting the installed system for you is pretty convenient, admittedly, especially if it uses LVM. but even there, there are tools to help. the GNOME Disks tool is pretty useful for e.g. 15:39
adamw sure, but is 'a little odd' enough for us to delay Beta release for a fourth week? these are the tough questions =) 15:40
adamw i just want to make sure the criteria are as bulletproof as possible in advance 15:40
adamw #info 'all kickstart delivery methods' criterion is agreed to be possibly overstated 15:41
tflink is rescue mode enough to delay beta for the fourth week? Maybe, maybe not. Honestly, it shouldn't be a huge issue @ beta, IMHO 15:41
adamw #action adamw to consider revisions to 'kickstart delivery method' criterion 15:41
tflink it should work already 15:41
adamw OK, well let's leave that one alone for the present 15:42
adamw looks like enough work to be going on with anyhow 15:42
adamw anyone else spotted anything in the criteria they think might be overambitious? 15:42
tflink if we're going to have a rescue mode, it should work by beta - there should be little/no need for it @ final 15:42
tflink adamw: that would be a good question for the anaconda devs and/or fesco 15:43
adamw tflink: yeah, that's a point 15:45
adamw tflink: do you feel like an action? i've had a lot this week ;) 15:46
tflink sure 15:46
adamw #action tflink to ask other interested parties (anaconda team, fesco...) to look over the beta criteria and see if there's anything they feel should be dialled down 15:47
adamw ok, i think that covers the criteria issue 15:47
adamw #topic Naming of TCs/RCs 15:48
adamw so i really meant to go through the archives and call out specific proposals for this discussion 15:48
adamw unfortunately i forgot :/ so we don't really have all the various proposals that have been made to hand 15:48
adamw still, does anyone have a particular favourite proposal for changing the naming of TCs/RCs or anything? 15:49
adamw we can always continue this next week if necessary 15:49
tflink works for me :) 15:50
robatino kparal and i had a proposal that involved making the names of all proposes lexicographically ordered and adding an "R" suffix for release candidates, i'd have to dig it up in the archives 15:52
robatino s/proposes/composes 15:52
adamw yeah, i remember that one 15:52
adamw C1, C2, C3R, C4, C5R - something like that 15:52
robatino btw, is it still possible to have tcs after rcs? if so, this would make that less confusing 15:53
adamw i like it because it's flexible and it's also obscure so should frighten people off and not make them confuse it with an official release, which is a good thing 15:53
adamw robatino: right now it is being intentionally left a grey area 15:53
adamw but that scheme would certainly allow for it in a nice way 15:53
tflink it might be good to add in a PC to make it more clear that it isn't a release 15:54
adamw pc? 15:54
tflink I can see how F18 beta C3 could be mistaken for something released 15:54
tflink pre-compose 15:54
tflink or something along those lines 15:54
adamw yeah...maybe needs more tweaking 15:54
adamw i guess there's the danger people just ignore the bit they don't understand and read 'f18 beta' 15:55
nirik how about... TC's stay the same and RC's change to "AC" "BC" (alpha compose, beta compose) 15:55
adamw so we go from Alpha TC4 to AC1? 15:57
nirik yeah 15:57
robatino as long as the announcement explicitly says "test compose" or "release candidate" doesn't that avoid the confusion? 15:57
nirik s/release/alpha/ 15:57
adamw robatino: no-one reads announcements, apparently. 15:58
adamw i don't think it's people on test list who get confused 15:58
adamw but the builds do get spread around via forums and irc to an extent 15:58
adamw it's usually people picking them up through those channels who get confused 15:58
robatino in that case, i'd think "TC" would be just as confusing 15:59
adamw well yeah, that's why the topic includes TC *and* RC naming... 15:59
nirik Fedora-18-Beta-NOT_A_RELEASE!.iso 15:59
adamw heh 16:00
adamw so i guess the lesson here is we still don't have a proposal everyone's in love with 16:00
adamw but we all at least agree on the goal 16:00
adamw sound about right? 16:00
tflink yeah 16:00
* nirik nods. 16:01
nirik I don't care what colour the bike shed is, just that it's a better shade of bright red to let people know what things are what. 16:01
adamw #agreed we still don't have a proposed scheme that everyone loves, but we agree the goal is to come up with a TC/RC naming scheme as unlikely as possible to confuse people about what each build is 16:01
adamw BRIGHT BLUE 16:01
adamw okey dokey 16:02
adamw #topic open floor 16:02
adamw anything for open floor? if you wanted to continue the freeze entrance discussion now would be the time 16:02
tflink does anyone have something to add about that discussion? 16:03
adamw yellow. 16:03
adamw that bikeshed should be yellow. 16:03
* tflink will be sending out an announcement about a devel version of the blocker tracking app once he fixes a bug or two - hopefully in the next day or so 16:03
adamw #info tflink will be announcing a new release of the blocker bug tracking app (also known as Skynet) shortly 16:04
adamw everyone stock up on tin foil hats 16:04
tflink hey, skynet isn't planned until the next release :-P 16:04
Southern_Gentlem skynet already exist in the UK 16:05
tflink sounds like nothing more to add on the freeze entrance stuff ATM 16:05
adamw sounds like that's all 16:06
adamw ayup 16:06
* adamw sets fuse for 1 minute 16:06
adamw i ran out of quantum fuses 16:06
tflink oh, any thoughts on starting the blocker review meetings this week? 16:06
* adamw stamps on fuse 16:06
tflink the list is getting _long_ 16:06
adamw yeah, that might not be a bad idea 16:06
adamw though we should try to get criteria revisions done or at least proposed ahead of the meeting 16:07
adamw anyone else? 16:07
adamw i know we all love blocker meetings 16:07
tflink they're the highlight of my week - I get lost between releases when we don't have blocker meetings 16:07
tflink we can skip over bugs that hit criteria under contention 16:08
adamw i mostly just curl into the foetal position and lie there crying 16:08
adamw wait, i do that anyway. 16:08
adamw that's a point. 16:08
tflink I doubt that we're going to hear much back from the anaconda devs or fesco on what's actually going to make it into beta by wednesday 16:08
tflink all the more reason to start that conversation now, I suppose 16:08
adamw sure 16:09
adamw one good way to start it is to accept a bunch of bugs as blockers so clumens explodes 16:09
adamw i always like watching that 16:09
tflink motivation :) 16:09
adamw well i think we bored everyone else to sleep 16:10
adamw so, blocker meeting on wednesday it is! 16:10
tflink and one way to phrase the conversation - "we're starting blocker review this week - if you have issues with the current criteria, now would be a good time to raise them" 16:10
* adamw re-lights fuse 16:11
* tflink runs away 16:11
Cerlyn I believe you mean fuze 16:11
adamw i'm pretty sure i don't? 16:12
adamw anyhow! boom 16:12
adamw #endmeeting 16:12

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