From Fedora Project Wiki
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - Init process | Jan 15 09:30 | |
-->drago01 (n=linux@chello062178124130.3.13.univie.teleweb.at) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 09:30 | |
nirik | who all is here for the irc support meeting? | Jan 15 09:30 |
---|---|---|
---johncoonfox is now known as RingtailedFox | Jan 15 09:30 | |
Southern_Gentlem | +1 | Jan 15 09:30 |
*zless zcat | Jan 15 09:31 | |
Southern_Gentlem | roguedaemon, is around somewhere | Jan 15 09:31 |
roguedaemon | present | Jan 15 09:32 |
*nirik will wait another min or two for others to show up. | Jan 15 09:33 | |
*Southern_Gentlem motions that meeting are at 1630 during est and 1530 during edt periods | Jan 15 09:33 | |
*rdieter lurks | Jan 15 09:34 | |
nirik | we could look at ignoring dst, but if so, I would want to move times to a bit later... | Jan 15 09:34 |
*Southern_Gentlem removes motion | Jan 15 09:35 | |
-->hanthana (n=hanthana@124.43.53.202) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 09:35 | |
roguedaemon | how about in the middle of the night some time? | Jan 15 09:35 |
nirik | possibly, but thats harder for people to schedule usually. | Jan 15 09:36 |
*thomasj present | Jan 15 09:36 | |
Southern_Gentlem | we can move it around as long as the chaanel is available and or have the meeting in ops | Jan 15 09:36 |
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - Meeting time | Jan 15 09:37 | |
roguedaemon | well, as long as its been going well | Jan 15 09:37 |
nirik | true, but it's nice to have a regular time so people know when to show up if they have something to bring up | Jan 15 09:37 |
roguedaemon | my thursdays are free now, at least for the time being | Jan 15 09:37 |
-->inode0 (n=inode0@fedora/inode0) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 09:38 | |
roguedaemon | so what was all the heat about the other day | Jan 15 09:38 |
nirik | how about we do 16:30utc all the time... so it would stay there when dst switches... | Jan 15 09:38 |
roguedaemon | how about the whole world switches to UTC | Jan 15 09:39 |
*nirik would be fine with that. | Jan 15 09:39 | |
Southern_Gentlem | +1 | Jan 15 09:40 |
roguedaemon | too many clocks! | Jan 15 09:40 |
*thomasj is fine with 16:30 UTC | Jan 15 09:40 | |
roguedaemon | i was thinking more like 02:00 heh | Jan 15 09:40 |
nirik | or we could just keep it at 16:30 now, and discuss again what to do about dst later before it happens. | Jan 15 09:42 |
nirik | (ie, why decide today what you can put off until tomorrow) | Jan 15 09:42 |
roguedaemon | perfect | Jan 15 09:42 |
nirik | ok, shall we move on? | Jan 15 09:42 |
Southern_Gentlem | yep | Jan 15 09:43 |
roguedaemon | we have 4 so far? | Jan 15 09:43 |
Southern_Gentlem | roguedaemon, http://fpaste.org/paste/1478 | Jan 15 09:43 |
Southern_Gentlem | that is what the uproar was aobut mainly | Jan 15 09:43 |
roguedaemon | yeah i looked around at it most of the night on tuesday | Jan 15 09:44 |
roguedaemon | or tried to anyway | Jan 15 09:44 |
-->vwbusguy (n=scott@fedora/vwbusguy) has joined #Fedora-meeting | Jan 15 09:44 | |
vwbusguy | sorry I'm late | Jan 15 09:44 |
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - EOL releases, remixes, spins, oh my. | Jan 15 09:44 | |
roguedaemon | i think i got the jist | Jan 15 09:44 |
roguedaemon | vwbusguy: slacker | Jan 15 09:44 |
Southern_Gentlem | basicly someone comes in with a eol release we high suggest they upgrade but if someone is willing to support them and it doesnt interfere with the rest of the channel we leave them alone | Jan 15 09:44 |
---Sparks is now known as Sparks_Lunch | Jan 15 09:44 | |
-->JSchmitt (n=s4504kr@p4FDD1AB4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 09:45 | |
nirik | I think this increases the chance that EOL people will be disruptive... so we need to watch out for that. | Jan 15 09:45 |
roguedaemon | but we could do that at any time before | Jan 15 09:45 |
vwbusguy | Southern_Gentlem, how about bugging them to upgrade incessantly? Is that an option? Because I was seeing a lot of that in chan | Jan 15 09:45 |
Southern_Gentlem | vwbusguy, isnt that highly suggest | Jan 15 09:45 |
-->Mac101 (n=matt@78-86-149-191.zone2.bethere.co.uk) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 09:46 | |
vwbusguy | yeah, I also feel like in 80% or more of cases, upgrading _is_ the best advice | Jan 15 09:46 |
roguedaemon | all i know is its hard enough remembering 2 releases at the pace it moves, a line has to be drawn and it needs to be fair | Jan 15 09:46 |
EvilBob | I am of the opinion that giving them any support other than help upgrading is in bad form, perhaps even endorsing their use of an EOL//insecure release | Jan 15 09:46 |
Southern_Gentlem | vwbusguy, 95% | Jan 15 09:46 |
roguedaemon | EOL is EOL, that always made it easy | Jan 15 09:46 |
Southern_Gentlem | EvilBob, i agree so if no one supports them then they have no other choice | Jan 15 09:46 |
EvilBob | roguedaemon: exacty | Jan 15 09:46 |
roguedaemon | but the remix thing is really what has me concerned | Jan 15 09:46 |
Southern_Gentlem | roguedaemon, me as well | Jan 15 09:47 |
roguedaemon | but i guess redhat would shoot that down instantly, right? | Jan 15 09:47 |
EvilBob | Southern_Gentlem: if we don't want anyone supporting them then the "rule" should be easy and clear | Jan 15 09:47 |
roguedaemon | well, i guess not, with the disclaimer | Jan 15 09:47 |
roguedaemon | the disclaimer makes it up to us | Jan 15 09:47 |
zless | maybe suffix each EOL with a link to an unpatched exploit? :) | Jan 15 09:47 |
roguedaemon | sort of.. | Jan 15 09:47 |
nirik | I don't think this changes too much, aside from making it more likely that people seeking EOL support will be disruptive... | Jan 15 09:48 |
Southern_Gentlem | i think we do what we have historicly done and not worry about it | Jan 15 09:48 |
*nirik shrugs. | Jan 15 09:48 | |
roguedaemon | ive been known to help a person in a bad situation with an eol version | Jan 15 09:48 |
EvilBob | What has always been our number 1 rule in #fedora? | Jan 15 09:48 |
EvilBob | Do nothing Malicious. | Jan 15 09:49 |
<--openpercept (n=openperc@unaffiliated/openpercept) has left #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 09:49 | |
roguedaemon | but the EOL statement always has to be firm and come first | Jan 15 09:49 |
EvilBob | IMO helping someone run an EOL release is just that | Jan 15 09:49 |
vwbusguy | EvilBob, like Google's Mission statement | Jan 15 09:49 |
EvilBob | You are helping the user get hacked | Jan 15 09:49 |
nirik | EvilBob: yeah, except for helping them migrate to a supported release. I think thats legit. | Jan 15 09:49 |
EvilBob | you are then helping that hacker attack others | Jan 15 09:49 |
vwbusguy | still, I dont' think it's our place to make that decision for them | Jan 15 09:50 |
vwbusguy | it's their box | Jan 15 09:50 |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: it's OUR reputation | Jan 15 09:50 |
roguedaemon | nirik: right | Jan 15 09:50 |
vwbusguy | as long as it doesn't detract from supported versions getting help | Jan 15 09:50 |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: I disagree | Jan 15 09:51 |
Southern_Gentlem | which is what we have always have done | Jan 15 09:51 |
roguedaemon | helping someone fix an EOL version is a heavy load, and the EOL statement should be pounded into the persons head, and then assist them in a solution | Jan 15 09:51 |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: you are enabling bad behavior | Jan 15 09:51 |
roguedaemon | but the ones that just want to stick with the old one have to be let go | Jan 15 09:51 |
Southern_Gentlem | helping them to upgrade is fine | Jan 15 09:51 |
-->giallu (n=giallu@fedora/giallu) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 09:51 | |
EvilBob | help to upgrade is and has always been fine | Jan 15 09:52 |
thomasj | We always helped them to upgrade, if possible. | Jan 15 09:52 |
EvilBob | But helping them keep insecure running is ignorant | Jan 15 09:52 |
*nirik is agreeing with EvilBob. I think pretty much everyone here would...so the question is: what do we gain by allowing other people to use the forum to help on EOL releases? | Jan 15 09:52 | |
roguedaemon | there was someone earlier with an fc3, fc4, f7, and el3 | Jan 15 09:53 |
EvilBob | If you think that machine can/will not be compromised you need to pull your head out of the sand | Jan 15 09:53 |
roguedaemon | i was like dude... | Jan 15 09:53 |
nirik | there was a rhl7.3 guy the other day. | Jan 15 09:53 |
vwbusguy | there is another chan for that though | Jan 15 09:53 |
vwbusguy | #redhat | Jan 15 09:53 |
roguedaemon | and of course we need a canned speech as to why | Jan 15 09:53 |
EvilBob | Hey they are free to take it out of the channel | Jan 15 09:53 |
roguedaemon | because it does come up a lot | Jan 15 09:53 |
EvilBob | they have that FREEDOM | Jan 15 09:53 |
Southern_Gentlem | guys do what you feel is the best | Jan 15 09:54 |
roguedaemon | maybe we need to write up a why to keep up with fedora statement | Jan 15 09:54 |
EvilBob | we can not stop them from doing that | Jan 15 09:54 |
EvilBob | we can only control through peer pressure what happens in #fedora | Jan 15 09:54 |
roguedaemon | someone else brought up another point which is that many people dont know that fedora moves so fast and think of it as just another distro and lalala | Jan 15 09:54 |
nirik | EvilBob: or through kicking people out | Jan 15 09:55 |
-->abadger1999 (n=abadger1@65.78.187.8) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 09:55 | |
<--RingtailedFox (n=johncoon@bas4-windsor12-1279761900.dsl.bell.ca) has left #fedora-meeting ("Konversation terminated!") | Jan 15 09:55 | |
EvilBob | nirik: I do not have or want that responsibility | Jan 15 09:55 |
nirik | sure, and we should try and use it sparingly. | Jan 15 09:55 |
<--mbacovsk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jan 15 09:55 | |
EvilBob | Look at it this way | Jan 15 09:56 |
EvilBob | it was not broken, why should we break it? | Jan 15 09:56 |
nirik | in the past it has been used on EOL people who keep asking their question. | Jan 15 09:56 |
Southern_Gentlem | i think we do a good job of limiting the use of op powers | Jan 15 09:56 |
<--flakrat has quit ("Leaving") | Jan 15 09:56 | |
-->daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 09:56 | |
thomasj | What channel will #fedora be, with almost no offtopic (supporting all and everything), when is it disruptive in the channel, what's the line? I see a bit chaos coming across the channel soon. | Jan 15 09:57 |
Southern_Gentlem | nirk at the point they were being distrupting the channel | Jan 15 09:57 |
EvilBob | the communities stance has been in stone so to speak since the dawn of time | Jan 15 09:57 |
EvilBob | EOL is EOL | Jan 15 09:57 |
vwbusguy | ok, assuming the EOL insecurities bad idea thing doesn't apply to remixes... which was the real question in this matter anyway | Jan 15 09:57 |
nirik | yeah, and I think it could be used again if they are distruptive, so what does this change? if anything? | Jan 15 09:57 |
roguedaemon | i think if someone has an answer or wants to help, it is their right, but it needs to be expressed that s is a dangerous situation that can only be solved by upgrade/reinstall | Jan 15 09:57 |
EvilBob | even when Legacy existed we did not help with EOL or Life Support Releases | Jan 15 09:57 |
EvilBob | EOL has nothing to so with a Remix as far as I can see | Jan 15 09:58 |
Southern_Gentlem | +1 roguedaemon | Jan 15 09:58 |
roguedaemon | anhyone who wants to help should, and they should also not argue with the recommendation to upgrade | Jan 15 09:58 |
vwbusguy | roguedaemon, +1 | Jan 15 09:58 |
-->tibbs (n=tibbs@fedora/tibbs) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 09:59 | |
roguedaemon | we've all seen it before | Jan 15 09:59 |
vwbusguy | kick is only used then if the person is disruptive to those getting help with current versions? | Jan 15 09:59 |
EvilBob | What is the new rule? | Jan 15 09:59 |
*nirik is wondering where we are here.... | Jan 15 10:00 | |
EvilBob | the old rule is "EOL Must upgrade" | Jan 15 10:00 |
Sonar_Guy | I dont see it as a new rule more a change in thinking. | Jan 15 10:00 |
roguedaemon | someone says "its fc2" someone says "upgrade" someone says "i cant" "too bad" blah balh | Jan 15 10:00 |
Southern_Gentlem | not our problem | Jan 15 10:00 |
roguedaemon | basically | Jan 15 10:00 |
Southern_Gentlem | contact godaddy | Jan 15 10:00 |
roguedaemon | lol usually | Jan 15 10:01 |
roguedaemon | or a pocket somewhere and just someone who needs to be clued in | Jan 15 10:01 |
EvilBob | what if the new rule is "EOL Should upgrade, if someone wants to help, take it to another channel" | Jan 15 10:01 |
*Southern_Gentlem motions we continue as we have been always doing | Jan 15 10:01 | |
<--abadger1999 has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jan 15 10:02 | |
opsec | i think everyone should have their little hands held.. and we should all be super dee duper polite and huggy kissy to all fedora users.. and every new user should get a free bunny rabbit with every install | Jan 15 10:02 |
vwbusguy | the only thing is, when is kick used? | Jan 15 10:02 |
roguedaemon | i have never turned away a real bleeding edge dev type environment scenario, though i may have been fooled once or twice | Jan 15 10:02 |
vwbusguy | that is the operational difference, if any | Jan 15 10:02 |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: when they refuse to go to another channel | Jan 15 10:02 |
Southern_Gentlem | vwbusguy, when you feel they are being disruptive | Jan 15 10:02 |
*roguedaemon pinches opsec's cheeks | Jan 15 10:02 | |
opsec | tee hee | Jan 15 10:02 |
roguedaemon | so cute! | Jan 15 10:03 |
opsec | </pilsbury doughboy> | Jan 15 10:03 |
roguedaemon | bunny week is coming btw | Jan 15 10:03 |
nirik | EvilBob: I think we should just stick with the old rule... it's unclear to me what we are changing really. | Jan 15 10:03 |
Southern_Gentlem | +1 | Jan 15 10:03 |
EvilBob | nirik: +1 | Jan 15 10:03 |
vwbusguy | ok, someone comes in running fc3 has random issue, someone immediately says to upgrade and they say 'well I just need to set up a static IP and don't want to upgrade' If someone wants to help them in chan? | Jan 15 10:03 |
opsec | nirik: mostly we're changing diaper. | Jan 15 10:03 |
opsec | +s | Jan 15 10:03 |
roguedaemon | http://www.nationalrabbitweek.co.uk/ | Jan 15 10:04 |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: then they leave | Jan 15 10:04 |
opsec | roguedaemon: damn romans! | Jan 15 10:04 |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: just as it has always been | Jan 15 10:04 |
vwbusguy | this is community support | Jan 15 10:04 |
nirik | vwbusguy: if someone wants to tell them how to do that they can... if it's disrupting real help others are getting, we ask them to go somewhere else. | Jan 15 10:04 |
roguedaemon | zcat found that one | Jan 15 10:04 |
vwbusguy | why should we govern that if it's not interferring with someone else getting help | Jan 15 10:04 |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: they are free to create and work on it in another channel | Jan 15 10:04 |
vwbusguy | and if it's not cumbersome to those getting help? | Jan 15 10:04 |
roguedaemon | started with me quoting fifi from mad max "what is this, bunny week?!" | Jan 15 10:05 |
Southern_Gentlem | vwbusguy, its up to each and every op in the channel at that point isnt it | Jan 15 10:05 |
nirik | vwbusguy: if someone wants to provide community support for EOL releases, they can start #fedora-legacy-support ? | Jan 15 10:05 |
Southern_Gentlem | or #fedora-eol | Jan 15 10:05 |
EvilBob | Will a community member get kicked if they are disruptive to the EOL user getting help? | Jan 15 10:05 |
roguedaemon | ok, lets forget the EOL think, what about the spin offs | Jan 15 10:05 |
nirik | so what about remixes/spins/whatever? | Jan 15 10:05 |
roguedaemon | or remixes | Jan 15 10:06 |
vwbusguy | why don't we just create #Fedora-eol? | Jan 15 10:06 |
roguedaemon | yeah | Jan 15 10:06 |
vwbusguy | then the issue will be over? | Jan 15 10:06 |
Southern_Gentlem | roguedaemon, in the case of Omega it is fedora +rpmfusion | Jan 15 10:06 |
nirik | vwbusguy: feel free. | Jan 15 10:06 |
nirik | the issue won't be over I suspect. | Jan 15 10:06 |
roguedaemon | no way can we support a "respin" that has rpmfusion built in | Jan 15 10:06 |
ivazquez | Then we'll have somewhere to send people other than "the hell out of here". | Jan 15 10:06 |
vwbusguy | can we create #Fedora-eol and give all Fedora ops access and anyone who wants to can help there | Jan 15 10:06 |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: IMO it is still in bad form to create a forum for the support of these insecure systems | Jan 15 10:06 |
roguedaemon | i mean, redhat does have some interest here | Jan 15 10:07 |
Southern_Gentlem | roguedaemon, and we are telling them to install rpmfusion daily so what is the difference | Jan 15 10:07 |
nirik | vwbusguy: it won't work. | Jan 15 10:07 |
roguedaemon | we can pretend all we want, but piling on all that is too much | Jan 15 10:07 |
vwbusguy | EvilBob, then you must not like #redhat | Jan 15 10:07 |
Southern_Gentlem | roguedaemon, then how can we support fedora with rpmfusion bits | Jan 15 10:07 |
opsec | roguedaemon: i agree. | Jan 15 10:07 |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: never been there, have no reason to | Jan 15 10:07 |
roguedaemon | but then again, people can help them if they want? but would they be taking advantage of the existing environment | Jan 15 10:07 |
vwbusguy | nirik, why won't it work | Jan 15 10:07 |
nirik | vwbusguy: I personally have no desire to support EOL releases. Until you have a pool of people helping there, we will just get in #fedora: "I have a fc1 machine" "go to #fedora-eol" "No one there answered my question" | Jan 15 10:08 |
opsec | support for the current + last version is plenty. | Jan 15 10:08 |
roguedaemon | Southern_Gentlem: that one is the same, or at least is for now, thats the rub | Jan 15 10:08 |
roguedaemon | the same thing we are telling people to do | Jan 15 10:08 |
EvilBob | nirik: then the response is "Well then i guess you have to upgrade" | Jan 15 10:08 |
nirik | I could be wrong, you might have people interested in helping there... feel free to try it. ;) | Jan 15 10:08 |
vwbusguy | nirik, how will we get a pool of people without creating the chan first | Jan 15 10:08 |
opsec | there should be a CLEAR support outline on fedoraproject.org and it should be adhered to. | Jan 15 10:08 |
Southern_Gentlem | roguedaemon, so we will support omega because it is fedora= rpmfusion | Jan 15 10:08 |
Southern_Gentlem | now linpus is a totally different matter | Jan 15 10:09 |
vwbusguy | nirik, could we get Chanserv in there and all any Fedora ops that want to help in there? | Jan 15 10:09 |
nirik | vwbusguy: we could, but how many would? | Jan 15 10:09 |
Southern_Gentlem | nope | Jan 15 10:09 |
roguedaemon | Southern_Gentlem: but what does it turn into? | Jan 15 10:09 |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: you are free to create any channel you want | Jan 15 10:09 |
Southern_Gentlem | vwbusguy, i disagree | Jan 15 10:09 |
roguedaemon | down the road? | Jan 15 10:09 |
*nirik asks for a raising of hands of who would help in #fedora-eol ? | Jan 15 10:09 | |
*vwbusguy raises hand | Jan 15 10:09 | |
Southern_Gentlem | roguedaemon, we will have to cross that bridge when we get to it | Jan 15 10:09 |
*thomasj no thanks | Jan 15 10:09 | |
*Sonar_Guy sits on his hands | Jan 15 10:10 | |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: then create your channel | Jan 15 10:10 |
*nirik puts his hands in his lap. | Jan 15 10:10 | |
roguedaemon | Southern_Gentlem: yeah and we are watching | Jan 15 10:10 |
Southern_Gentlem | -100 | Jan 15 10:10 |
*roguedaemon squints | Jan 15 10:10 | |
vwbusguy | fair enough | Jan 15 10:10 |
opsec | eol support is a waste of energy | Jan 15 10:11 |
nirik | vwbusguy: perhaps posting to fedora list or forums might gather enough people? I just don't think there is enough people who would want to help there... | Jan 15 10:11 |
roguedaemon | like i said, it moves so fast these days keeping track of the differences between 2 versions is enough | Jan 15 10:11 |
zless | imagine a XY graph. -1 X axis is a bastardized FC1 remix godaddy thing; +1 is F10, -1 Y is a release-specific question; +1 Y is a generic rh/fedora/linux *nix question. i say we answer everything from -1,0 to 1,1 :) | Jan 15 10:11 |
Southern_Gentlem | vwbusguy, alot of us have been that road before | Jan 15 10:11 |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: create your channel, I will point people to it after working them over thoroughly with a CLUEx4 | Jan 15 10:11 |
zless | that would probably make more sense as an image | Jan 15 10:11 |
opsec | roguedaemon: again, a voice of reason. | Jan 15 10:11 |
-->abadger1999 (n=abadger1@65.78.187.8) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 10:12 | |
opsec | simplicity is key in support.. | Jan 15 10:12 |
nirik | so, on remix/spins, I think we should support where we can or know about the release... and point to other resources if we don't. Just like always. | Jan 15 10:12 |
Southern_Gentlem | opsec we support the current fedora release so for 1 month we are supporting 3 | Jan 15 10:12 |
Sonar_Guy | roguedaemon: I agree fully | Jan 15 10:12 |
zless | yep... | Jan 15 10:12 |
roguedaemon | and thats what fedora is | Jan 15 10:12 |
vwbusguy | EvilBob, my point is if the channel existed we could point eol people out of Fedora and if they can't get help there they probably weren't going to get it anyway. It is community support after all | Jan 15 10:12 |
vwbusguy | but at least that way we wouldn't have to have this discussion again | Jan 15 10:12 |
Falstius | if someone asks an EOL or remix question, tell them roughly how to fix it in current Fedora, warn them it might not work, and strongly suggest upgrading. | Jan 15 10:12 |
roguedaemon | but we cant kick the customer out, so we need a canned speech | Jan 15 10:13 |
opsec | Southern_Gentlem: i'm aware of that .. a month of overlap is acceptable.. | Jan 15 10:13 |
EvilBob | nirik: I think this is an easy one, if we know what it is and can help, we do, if we can't we sit on our hands and help them find resources | Jan 15 10:13 |
roguedaemon | i guess we already have one | Jan 15 10:13 |
*nirik nods. | Jan 15 10:13 | |
vwbusguy | how would upgrading a remix be helpful? | Jan 15 10:13 |
opsec | there needs to be a CRYSTAL CLEAR support outline on fp.org | Jan 15 10:13 |
nirik | Omega 10 should be pretty close to what we know. Linpus is scary different from anything I know. | Jan 15 10:13 |
nirik | but unless we say "nothing that isn't fedora" we should just use common sense and go on a case by case basis. | Jan 15 10:14 |
vwbusguy | say a Linpus user comes in and says 'How can I dual boot my machine' ? | Jan 15 10:14 |
Southern_Gentlem | omega is based on fc6 with a f8 custom kernel | Jan 15 10:14 |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: and I refuse to support someone wanting to run a system that is insecure, that will be used to send several million pieces of spam at the Fedora Unity mail servers and the servers at tummy.com | Jan 15 10:14 |
nirik | Southern_Gentlem: you mean linpus? | Jan 15 10:14 |
vwbusguy | EvilBob, but re-mixes are different | Jan 15 10:14 |
Southern_Gentlem | opps yes linpus | Jan 15 10:14 |
zless | linpus is f8 with their custom updater, kernel, and other packages | Jan 15 10:15 |
vwbusguy | ok, fair enough | Jan 15 10:15 |
opsec | anything that isn't an official fedora release should be ignored as a prospective support target. | Jan 15 10:15 |
vwbusguy | then we're back to Omega | Jan 15 10:15 |
roguedaemon | i think most of us can give advice to those people with remixes, unless its clearly non-standard | Jan 15 10:15 |
roguedaemon | EOL is EOL | Jan 15 10:15 |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: sorry toke me a minute to get that out, was a response to "It is community support after all" | Jan 15 10:15 |
opsec | non-fedora is non-fedora. | Jan 15 10:15 |
roguedaemon | opsec: i agree, but i sense a grey area there | Jan 15 10:16 |
opsec | there's ##linux for bastard distro questions | Jan 15 10:16 |
nirik | opsec: I disagree... Orange Sombrero or Omega are so close that it doesn't matter. | Jan 15 10:16 |
vwbusguy | all the bits of Omega are the same as most of our Fedora end users anyway | Jan 15 10:16 |
opsec | nirik: non-fedora clouds real fedora issues and development in my opinion | Jan 15 10:16 |
vwbusguy | AND considering you can enable RPMFusion in anaconda and get the same bits on install in Fedora | Jan 15 10:17 |
roguedaemon | vwbusguy: yeah and we can answer their questions most likely | Jan 15 10:17 |
Southern_Gentlem | we will have to look at each remix as it comes along | Jan 15 10:17 |
EvilBob | as long as you know what it is, it is current, and can help so be it | Jan 15 10:17 |
roguedaemon | but how far does it go | Jan 15 10:17 |
vwbusguy | roguedaemon, until we talk about it again, haha | Jan 15 10:17 |
opsec | it's like rich people having 10 forks and 15 spoons on the table .. what's the real benefit to fedora? | Jan 15 10:17 |
roguedaemon | we've all seen distros change, faster every day | Jan 15 10:17 |
nirik | opsec: we encourage people to remix and spin fedora in new ways and still get support. | Jan 15 10:17 |
roguedaemon | once it becomes truly non-fedora they need to be cut off, but who is to know | Jan 15 10:17 |
roguedaemon | i'm not watching all those others | Jan 15 10:18 |
vwbusguy | roguedaemon, helpers discretion | Jan 15 10:18 |
Sonar_Guy | roguedaemon: that is my issue with remixes | Jan 15 10:18 |
opsec | nirik: perhaps #fedora-spins for those people? | Jan 15 10:18 |
roguedaemon | Sonar_Guy: mine too | Jan 15 10:18 |
opsec | each of us have only so much time for our lives .. who wants to support 900 offshoots? | Jan 15 10:18 |
vwbusguy | no one is obligated to support a re-spin | Jan 15 10:18 |
nirik | opsec: that will just divide up resources... until they reach a point where there are enough seperate people wanting support on them, and willing to help support them. | Jan 15 10:18 |
roguedaemon | and nirik has a valid point too | Jan 15 10:19 |
vwbusguy | but if someone wants to help they can | Jan 15 10:19 |
vwbusguy | IMO | Jan 15 10:19 |
Sonar_Guy | per the trademark guidelines you can have some fedora packages and still be called a remix | Jan 15 10:19 |
EvilBob | when a 'normal fix' does not work on a remix.... then we will know it has gone to far | Jan 15 10:19 |
roguedaemon | how far do we want to go beyond the 2 versions | Jan 15 10:19 |
vwbusguy | as long as people who are running current Fedora can get support | Jan 15 10:19 |
nirik | vwbusguy: agreed. | Jan 15 10:19 |
opsec | once you decide as a user you need to step outside of an official release, it should be automatically assumed you will have far less outside support avenues | Jan 15 10:19 |
roguedaemon | loosen up the OT on oddballs and speak up when its too far | Jan 15 10:20 |
vwbusguy | opsec, that is th eopposite fo what Fedora was trying to achieve with 're-mixes' | Jan 15 10:20 |
roguedaemon | or just watch it quietly | Jan 15 10:20 |
opsec | vwbusguy: so i should try and keep track of what every person who wants a slightly different fedora spin is doing? | Jan 15 10:20 |
Sonar_Guy | roguedaemon: but that is where we run into issues | Jan 15 10:20 |
vwbusguy | not if you don't want to | Jan 15 10:21 |
roguedaemon | but we all know theres going to be a ton of fedora spin-offs eventually | Jan 15 10:21 |
nirik | opsec: no, you personally can just decide not to. | Jan 15 10:21 |
roguedaemon | Sonar_Guy: yep | Jan 15 10:21 |
Sonar_Guy | roguedaemon: I may watch quietly but another op may consider it off topic | Jan 15 10:21 |
vwbusguy | opsec, if you only want to support a blessed version then that's up to you | Jan 15 10:21 |
<--nphilipp has quit ("Leaving") | Jan 15 10:21 | |
opsec | it's in fedoras/the communities best interest to support only fedora mainstream | Jan 15 10:21 |
roguedaemon | if i cant find it in my fedora i'll say hey thats an oddball | Jan 15 10:21 |
opsec | it will advance faster | Jan 15 10:21 |
vwbusguy | are we settled on this? | Jan 15 10:22 |
EvilBob | can we create a wiki page for these mixes? | Jan 15 10:22 |
roguedaemon | dont they have their own pages? | Jan 15 10:22 |
vwbusguy | EvilBob, if one doesn't exist it should | Jan 15 10:22 |
EvilBob | "hey this is different" as we find them | Jan 15 10:22 |
roguedaemon | maybe link to them as a community | Jan 15 10:23 |
EvilBob | so if someone has GibbonGutz 10 we can look and see | Jan 15 10:23 |
<--hanthana has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jan 15 10:23 | |
roguedaemon | just to show what else is happening | Jan 15 10:23 |
nirik | EvilBob: +1, we should make a page with the list... | Jan 15 10:23 |
roguedaemon | but we should keep our stuff to the 2 releases | Jan 15 10:23 |
EvilBob | if GibbonGutz is FEdora with different artwork... | Jan 15 10:24 |
roguedaemon | and keep it clear | Jan 15 10:24 |
EvilBob | that is easy to support | Jan 15 10:24 |
Sonar_Guy | nirik: then the fab needs to dictate that in the trademark guidelines, as part of using the secondary mark | Jan 15 10:24 |
nirik | EvilBob: and some links to point people to for FooBarBaz which is very different. | Jan 15 10:24 |
nirik | Sonar_Guy: ? | Jan 15 10:25 |
EvilBob | yup up | Jan 15 10:25 |
roguedaemon | the board | Jan 15 10:25 |
Sonar_Guy | currently there is no guideline for using the remix | Jan 15 10:25 |
Sonar_Guy | mark, | Jan 15 10:25 |
opsec | a wiki page with a list of respins, and their detailed list of changes/modifications from official fedora would be a good idea | Jan 15 10:25 |
*Southern_Gentlem wonders is we have beaten this horse to death yet | Jan 15 10:25 | |
roguedaemon | Southern_Gentlem: just about :) | Jan 15 10:25 |
opsec | in some circles, horse meat is a prized possession | Jan 15 10:26 |
roguedaemon | is anyone unhappy that has something to say? | Jan 15 10:26 |
Sonar_Guy | so how do we know when somebody does? Where do we get the information to put on the wiki page? | Jan 15 10:26 |
Southern_Gentlem | but it doesnt get us anything in here | Jan 15 10:26 |
vwbusguy | well, I'm going to try to star a #Fedora-eol, not sure how we'd advertise it. Maybe helpful to put in the title | Jan 15 10:26 |
<--gregdek has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jan 15 10:26 | |
roguedaemon | vwbusguy: wow thats a tall order | Jan 15 10:27 |
vwbusguy | but for re-mixes I think I'm happy with where we | Jan 15 10:27 |
vwbusguy | re at | Jan 15 10:27 |
vwbusguy | roguedaemon, topic | Jan 15 10:27 |
vwbusguy | roguedaemon, sorry, lol | Jan 15 10:27 |
*vwbusguy needs more caffeine, bad | Jan 15 10:27 | |
nirik | vwbusguy: good luck! :) | Jan 15 10:27 |
roguedaemon | we do hit EOL people a little hard sometimes, thats the only problem i see | Jan 15 10:27 |
roguedaemon | but they have to be told | Jan 15 10:28 |
EvilBob | roguedaemon: we hit hard when they don't listen | Jan 15 10:28 |
-->hanthana (n=hanthana@124.43.53.202) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 10:28 | |
*Southern_Gentlem lets move on | Jan 15 10:28 | |
roguedaemon | yes of course | Jan 15 10:28 |
EvilBob | roguedaemon: we hit hard when they ignore what they are told and ask the question 15 times in a half hour | Jan 15 10:28 |
roguedaemon | EvilBob: sometimes too hard too fast, but it is irc | Jan 15 10:28 |
roguedaemon | thats probably just normal dynamic | Jan 15 10:29 |
Southern_Gentlem | bot next? | Jan 15 10:29 |
EvilBob | I look forward to vwbusguy's 3 month report | Jan 15 10:29 |
roguedaemon | yeah wheres my tutorial page | Jan 15 10:29 |
<--Sonar_Guy (n=Baconz@fedora/sonarguy) has left #fedora-meeting ("No longer intrested in this Place") | Jan 15 10:29 | |
roguedaemon | i registered but i have no clue how to use it | Jan 15 10:29 |
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - bot | Jan 15 10:29 | |
nirik | ok, I need to write up a cheat sheet... | Jan 15 10:30 |
Southern_Gentlem | roguedaemon, we can help you there | Jan 15 10:30 |
opsec | roguedaemon: there needs to be a crystal clear official page about EOL and what is/is not supported.. that should end any nonsense. | Jan 15 10:30 |
vwbusguy | EvilBob, me2 :-) | Jan 15 10:30 |
nirik | so currently we have fedbot. It's running here on my machine. It's doing flood control in channel without any intervention. | Jan 15 10:30 |
-->spoleeba (n=one@fedora/Jef) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 10:30 | |
Southern_Gentlem | nirik this morning i was tring to advertise our meeting in fedora | Jan 15 10:30 |
Southern_Gentlem | <Southern_Gentlem> say #fedora ***IRC Support Meeting in #fedora-meeting in 20 Minutes*** | Jan 15 10:30 |
Southern_Gentlem | <fedbot> Error: That channel has set its capabilities so as to disallow the use of this plugin. | Jan 15 10:30 |
roguedaemon | opsec: yeah the canned statement | Jan 15 10:30 |
nirik | It should pretty much ignore anything anyone sends it in channel | Jan 15 10:30 |
nirik | Southern_Gentlem: yeah, I took away that capability... need to add it to ops... | Jan 15 10:31 |
opsec | roguedaemon: it needs to be clear, non-offensive, and straight to the point as possible | Jan 15 10:31 |
roguedaemon | opsec: bot | Jan 15 10:31 |
nirik | it can also do kban and chanban's that have a timeout. So you can kick someone for 1 day and it will automagically remove it 1 day later. | Jan 15 10:31 |
nirik | you need to /msg fedbot register on it, then see me and I can enable capabilities for you. | Jan 15 10:32 |
roguedaemon | is the bot faster than my lightning fast kickban? | Jan 15 10:32 |
Southern_Gentlem | yep and its doing it so your name isnt seen | Jan 15 10:32 |
roguedaemon | i think i got it under 3 seconds op/kick/deop | Jan 15 10:32 |
nirik | roguedaemon: might be a bit faster... the nice thing is that it removes at timeout without you having to remember. | Jan 15 10:33 |
nirik | roguedaemon: should be /msg fedbot kban1d foobar | Jan 15 10:33 |
Southern_Gentlem | NAME kban1d | Jan 15 10:34 |
Southern_Gentlem | CMD msg fedbot kban #fedora %2 86400 %3 | Jan 15 10:34 |
nirik | down the road I would like to look at using one of the KB plugins... | Jan 15 10:34 |
roguedaemon | i was just gonna say you must have a cmd | Jan 15 10:34 |
nirik | so we could use it to point people to resources, etc. | Jan 15 10:34 |
-->Sonar_Guy (n=Baconz@fedora/sonarguy) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 10:34 | |
nirik | there is also a kban1d alias... | Jan 15 10:34 |
roguedaemon | Southern_Gentlem: whats %3 | Jan 15 10:34 |
roguedaemon | oh the message | Jan 15 10:34 |
Southern_Gentlem | reason | Jan 15 10:34 |
roguedaemon | man how long does that take | Jan 15 10:35 |
Southern_Gentlem | as fast as you can type | Jan 15 10:35 |
<--iarlyy (n=iarlyy@mail.libertynet.com.br) has left #fedora-meeting ("Leaving") | Jan 15 10:35 | |
roguedaemon | my < 3 seconds is with userlist buttons :) | Jan 15 10:35 |
zless | roguedaemon, fedbot will stay opped, so no waiting around for the chanserv op toggle anymore | Jan 15 10:36 |
roguedaemon | i guess i can adapt | Jan 15 10:36 |
vwbusguy | whose the GC for #Fedora ? | Jan 15 10:36 |
Southern_Gentlem | /kban1w roguedaemon because | Jan 15 10:36 |
vwbusguy | nirik, that you? | Jan 15 10:36 |
nirik | anyhow, any further questions on the bot? Happy to accept patches or ideas. | Jan 15 10:36 |
nirik | vwbusguy: GC? | Jan 15 10:36 |
EvilBob | GC? | Jan 15 10:36 |
Southern_Gentlem | spot | Jan 15 10:36 |
vwbusguy | group contact | Jan 15 10:36 |
Southern_Gentlem | spot | Jan 15 10:36 |
EvilBob | spot owns all #fedora* | Jan 15 10:36 |
nirik | vwbusguy: yeah, spot is for #fedora* | Jan 15 10:36 |
*spot nods | Jan 15 10:36 | |
roguedaemon | ok, i'll warm up to it, fear not | Jan 15 10:36 |
-->susmit (n=susmit@59.93.208.229) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 10:36 | |
vwbusguy | spot, do I have your blessing? | Jan 15 10:36 |
Southern_Gentlem | vwbusguy, tell him what you are doing | Jan 15 10:37 |
vwbusguy | spot, do you care if I maintain #Fedora-eol ? | Jan 15 10:37 |
EvilBob | some would say "Spot is FEEDDDOOOORRRRRAAAAAA!" | Jan 15 10:37 |
vwbusguy | spot, for Fedora EOL community support | Jan 15 10:37 |
spot | vwbusguy: nope. have fun. :) | Jan 15 10:37 |
roguedaemon | what is spot blessing now? | Jan 15 10:38 |
Southern_Gentlem | a stain on the rug | Jan 15 10:38 |
roguedaemon | oh heh | Jan 15 10:38 |
EvilBob | spot: forgive him, he is too young to remember Legacy | Jan 15 10:38 |
-->neverho0d (n=psv@vpn-pool-78-139-211-130.tomtel.ru) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 10:38 | |
Southern_Gentlem | spot, i am willing to be on the ops list if needed | Jan 15 10:39 |
roguedaemon | not like he couldnt imagine the burden | Jan 15 10:39 |
spot | EvilBob: for some people, the only way they learn that fire burns is to stick their hand in it. ;) | Jan 15 10:39 |
EvilBob | lol | Jan 15 10:39 |
Southern_Gentlem | spot we agree | Jan 15 10:39 |
roguedaemon | vwbusguy: think about it for a while | Jan 15 10:39 |
*nirik nods. | Jan 15 10:39 | |
nirik | ok, any more questions on bot? | Jan 15 10:39 |
vwbusguy | channel is now registered, chanserv is set up | Jan 15 10:39 |
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - Open floor | Jan 15 10:40 | |
nirik | any further items to bring up? | Jan 15 10:40 |
*roguedaemon falls on open floor | Jan 15 10:40 | |
vwbusguy | Can we add #Fedora-eol to /topc in #Fedora | Jan 15 10:40 |
roguedaemon | sorry ive been so absent, i'm having a hard time keeping up | Jan 15 10:40 |
EvilBob | I disagree | Jan 15 10:40 |
Southern_Gentlem | i agree | Jan 15 10:41 |
EvilBob | same argument as supporting it in the channel | Jan 15 10:41 |
nirik | vwbusguy: do you want to try and get further people there first? | Jan 15 10:41 |
roguedaemon | vwbusguy: just redirect people there in convo | Jan 15 10:41 |
EvilBob | endorsing the use of EOL releases is bad juju | Jan 15 10:41 |
roguedaemon | after giving them the third degree about EOL | Jan 15 10:42 |
<--lfoppiano has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jan 15 10:42 | |
roguedaemon | topic is a bad idea | Jan 15 10:42 |
vwbusguy | nirik, ok, we can do that | Jan 15 10:42 |
Southern_Gentlem | that way we can put f9-f10 | EOL:#fedora-eol | Jan 15 10:42 |
EvilBob | I like roguedaemon's idea | Jan 15 10:42 |
*nirik also does. | Jan 15 10:42 | |
Southern_Gentlem | ok | Jan 15 10:42 |
-->sdziallas (n=sebastia@p57A2F211.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 10:43 | |
vwbusguy | Southern_Gentlem, yeah, maybe it will deflect some from the beginning | Jan 15 10:43 |
EvilBob | work with the user to upgrade, if they don't get it, send them over | Jan 15 10:43 |
roguedaemon | less encouragement | Jan 15 10:43 |
thomasj | to the hit-and-run-channel | Jan 15 10:43 |
roguedaemon | dire straits | Jan 15 10:43 |
EvilBob | deflecting fromt he beginning will allow them to miss the message of "Hey you really need to upgrade" | Jan 15 10:44 |
<--valente has quit ("Leaving.") | Jan 15 10:44 | |
zless | vwbusguy, hand out EOL exploit links like candy. kthx. | Jan 15 10:44 |
roguedaemon | its all going to happen in channel anyway | Jan 15 10:45 |
EvilBob | zless: a "this is how you compromise F7" class might make the whole EOL thing more fun. | Jan 15 10:45 |
roguedaemon | mostly | Jan 15 10:45 |
*Southern_Gentlem mentions that version of Fedora is EOL and instructs EvilBob to read /topic and directs EvilBob to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Fedora-EOL-Support | Jan 15 10:45 | |
vwbusguy | zless, you're welcome to join the chan and do it yourself, lol | Jan 15 10:45 |
-->openpercept (n=openperc@unaffiliated/openpercept) has joined #fedora-meeting | Jan 15 10:45 | |
*nirik will close the meeting in 60 unless someone has something more to discuss. | Jan 15 10:45 | |
vwbusguy | EvilBob, look at the /topic in #Fedora-eol. I encourage upgrading | Jan 15 10:46 |
roguedaemon | Southern_Gentlem: yes we need a good fedbot canned speech | Jan 15 10:46 |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: I am sure you will, I do not doubt that | Jan 15 10:46 |
*zless would just like to wish everyone a happy bunny week (?). bye. | Jan 15 10:46 | |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: it is others that concern me | Jan 15 10:46 |
roguedaemon | zless: fuzzy | Jan 15 10:46 |
EvilBob | vwbusguy: you are mostly sane | Jan 15 10:46 |
vwbusguy | haha, u wish | Jan 15 10:46 |
roguedaemon | a happy fuzzy bunny week | Jan 15 10:46 |
roguedaemon | i'm pretty sure fifi in mad max meant "what is this, bunny week?" as an insult | Jan 15 10:47 |
nirik | ok, thanks everyone for coming. Have fun out there. | Jan 15 10:47 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!