Meeting:IRC Support SIG 2009-01-15

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---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - Init process Jan 15 09:30
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nirik who all is here for the irc support meeting? Jan 15 09:30
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Southern_Gentlem +1 Jan 15 09:30
*zless zcat Jan 15 09:31
Southern_Gentlem roguedaemon, is around somewhere Jan 15 09:31
roguedaemon present Jan 15 09:32
*nirik will wait another min or two for others to show up. Jan 15 09:33
*Southern_Gentlem motions that meeting are at 1630 during est and 1530 during edt periods Jan 15 09:33
*rdieter lurks Jan 15 09:34
nirik we could look at ignoring dst, but if so, I would want to move times to a bit later... Jan 15 09:34
*Southern_Gentlem removes motion Jan 15 09:35
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roguedaemon how about in the middle of the night some time? Jan 15 09:35
nirik possibly, but thats harder for people to schedule usually. Jan 15 09:36
*thomasj present Jan 15 09:36
Southern_Gentlem we can move it around as long as the chaanel is available and or have the meeting in ops Jan 15 09:36
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - Meeting time Jan 15 09:37
roguedaemon well, as long as its been going well Jan 15 09:37
nirik true, but it's nice to have a regular time so people know when to show up if they have something to bring up Jan 15 09:37
roguedaemon my thursdays are free now, at least for the time being Jan 15 09:37
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roguedaemon so what was all the heat about the other day Jan 15 09:38
nirik how about we do 16:30utc all the time... so it would stay there when dst switches... Jan 15 09:38
roguedaemon how about the whole world switches to UTC Jan 15 09:39
*nirik would be fine with that. Jan 15 09:39
Southern_Gentlem +1 Jan 15 09:40
roguedaemon too many clocks! Jan 15 09:40
*thomasj is fine with 16:30 UTC Jan 15 09:40
roguedaemon i was thinking more like 02:00 heh Jan 15 09:40
nirik or we could just keep it at 16:30 now, and discuss again what to do about dst later before it happens. Jan 15 09:42
nirik (ie, why decide today what you can put off until tomorrow) Jan 15 09:42
roguedaemon perfect Jan 15 09:42
nirik ok, shall we move on? Jan 15 09:42
Southern_Gentlem yep Jan 15 09:43
roguedaemon we have 4 so far? Jan 15 09:43
Southern_Gentlem roguedaemon, http://fpaste.org/paste/1478 Jan 15 09:43
Southern_Gentlem that is what the uproar was aobut mainly Jan 15 09:43
roguedaemon yeah i looked around at it most of the night on tuesday Jan 15 09:44
roguedaemon or tried to anyway Jan 15 09:44
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vwbusguy sorry I'm late Jan 15 09:44
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - EOL releases, remixes, spins, oh my. Jan 15 09:44
roguedaemon i think i got the jist Jan 15 09:44
roguedaemon vwbusguy: slacker Jan 15 09:44
Southern_Gentlem basicly someone comes in with a eol release we high suggest they upgrade but if someone is willing to support them and it doesnt interfere with the rest of the channel we leave them alone Jan 15 09:44
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nirik I think this increases the chance that EOL people will be disruptive... so we need to watch out for that. Jan 15 09:45
roguedaemon but we could do that at any time before Jan 15 09:45
vwbusguy Southern_Gentlem, how about bugging them to upgrade incessantly? Is that an option? Because I was seeing a lot of that in chan Jan 15 09:45
Southern_Gentlem vwbusguy, isnt that highly suggest Jan 15 09:45
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vwbusguy yeah, I also feel like in 80% or more of cases, upgrading _is_ the best advice Jan 15 09:46
roguedaemon all i know is its hard enough remembering 2 releases at the pace it moves, a line has to be drawn and it needs to be fair Jan 15 09:46
EvilBob I am of the opinion that giving them any support other than help upgrading is in bad form, perhaps even endorsing their use of an EOL//insecure release Jan 15 09:46
Southern_Gentlem vwbusguy, 95% Jan 15 09:46
roguedaemon EOL is EOL, that always made it easy Jan 15 09:46
Southern_Gentlem EvilBob, i agree so if no one supports them then they have no other choice Jan 15 09:46
EvilBob roguedaemon: exacty Jan 15 09:46
roguedaemon but the remix thing is really what has me concerned Jan 15 09:46
Southern_Gentlem roguedaemon, me as well Jan 15 09:47
roguedaemon but i guess redhat would shoot that down instantly, right? Jan 15 09:47
EvilBob Southern_Gentlem: if we don't want anyone supporting them then the "rule" should be easy and clear Jan 15 09:47
roguedaemon well, i guess not, with the disclaimer Jan 15 09:47
roguedaemon the disclaimer makes it up to us Jan 15 09:47
zless maybe suffix each EOL with a link to an unpatched exploit? :) Jan 15 09:47
roguedaemon sort of.. Jan 15 09:47
nirik I don't think this changes too much, aside from making it more likely that people seeking EOL support will be disruptive... Jan 15 09:48
Southern_Gentlem i think we do what we have historicly done and not worry about it Jan 15 09:48
*nirik shrugs. Jan 15 09:48
roguedaemon ive been known to help a person in a bad situation with an eol version Jan 15 09:48
EvilBob What has always been our number 1 rule in #fedora? Jan 15 09:48
EvilBob Do nothing Malicious. Jan 15 09:49
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roguedaemon but the EOL statement always has to be firm and come first Jan 15 09:49
EvilBob IMO helping someone run an EOL release is just that Jan 15 09:49
vwbusguy EvilBob, like Google's Mission statement Jan 15 09:49
EvilBob You are helping the user get hacked Jan 15 09:49
nirik EvilBob: yeah, except for helping them migrate to a supported release. I think thats legit. Jan 15 09:49
EvilBob you are then helping that hacker attack others Jan 15 09:49
vwbusguy still, I dont' think it's our place to make that decision for them Jan 15 09:50
vwbusguy it's their box Jan 15 09:50
EvilBob vwbusguy: it's OUR reputation Jan 15 09:50
roguedaemon nirik: right Jan 15 09:50
vwbusguy as long as it doesn't detract from supported versions getting help Jan 15 09:50
EvilBob vwbusguy: I disagree Jan 15 09:51
Southern_Gentlem which is what we have always have done Jan 15 09:51
roguedaemon helping someone fix an EOL version is a heavy load, and the EOL statement should be pounded into the persons head, and then assist them in a solution Jan 15 09:51
EvilBob vwbusguy: you are enabling bad behavior Jan 15 09:51
roguedaemon but the ones that just want to stick with the old one have to be let go Jan 15 09:51
Southern_Gentlem helping them to upgrade is fine Jan 15 09:51
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EvilBob help to upgrade is and has always been fine Jan 15 09:52
thomasj We always helped them to upgrade, if possible. Jan 15 09:52
EvilBob But helping them keep insecure running is ignorant Jan 15 09:52
*nirik is agreeing with EvilBob. I think pretty much everyone here would...so the question is: what do we gain by allowing other people to use the forum to help on EOL releases? Jan 15 09:52
roguedaemon there was someone earlier with an fc3, fc4, f7, and el3 Jan 15 09:53
EvilBob If you think that machine can/will not be compromised you need to pull your head out of the sand Jan 15 09:53
roguedaemon i was like dude... Jan 15 09:53
nirik there was a rhl7.3 guy the other day. Jan 15 09:53
vwbusguy there is another chan for that though Jan 15 09:53
vwbusguy #redhat Jan 15 09:53
roguedaemon and of course we need a canned speech as to why Jan 15 09:53
EvilBob Hey they are free to take it out of the channel Jan 15 09:53
roguedaemon because it does come up a lot Jan 15 09:53
EvilBob they have that FREEDOM Jan 15 09:53
Southern_Gentlem guys do what you feel is the best Jan 15 09:54
roguedaemon maybe we need to write up a why to keep up with fedora statement Jan 15 09:54
EvilBob we can not stop them from doing that Jan 15 09:54
EvilBob we can only control through peer pressure what happens in #fedora Jan 15 09:54
roguedaemon someone else brought up another point which is that many people dont know that fedora moves so fast and think of it as just another distro and lalala Jan 15 09:54
nirik EvilBob: or through kicking people out Jan 15 09:55
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EvilBob nirik: I do not have or want that responsibility Jan 15 09:55
nirik sure, and we should try and use it sparingly. Jan 15 09:55
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EvilBob Look at it this way Jan 15 09:56
EvilBob it was not broken, why should we break it? Jan 15 09:56
nirik in the past it has been used on EOL people who keep asking their question. Jan 15 09:56
Southern_Gentlem i think we do a good job of limiting the use of op powers Jan 15 09:56
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thomasj What channel will #fedora be, with almost no offtopic (supporting all and everything), when is it disruptive in the channel, what's the line? I see a bit chaos coming across the channel soon. Jan 15 09:57
Southern_Gentlem nirk at the point they were being distrupting the channel Jan 15 09:57
EvilBob the communities stance has been in stone so to speak since the dawn of time Jan 15 09:57
EvilBob EOL is EOL Jan 15 09:57
vwbusguy ok, assuming the EOL insecurities bad idea thing doesn't apply to remixes... which was the real question in this matter anyway Jan 15 09:57
nirik yeah, and I think it could be used again if they are distruptive, so what does this change? if anything? Jan 15 09:57
roguedaemon i think if someone has an answer or wants to help, it is their right, but it needs to be expressed that s is a dangerous situation that can only be solved by upgrade/reinstall Jan 15 09:57
EvilBob even when Legacy existed we did not help with EOL or Life Support Releases Jan 15 09:57
EvilBob EOL has nothing to so with a Remix as far as I can see Jan 15 09:58
Southern_Gentlem +1 roguedaemon Jan 15 09:58
roguedaemon anhyone who wants to help should, and they should also not argue with the recommendation to upgrade Jan 15 09:58
vwbusguy roguedaemon, +1 Jan 15 09:58
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roguedaemon we've all seen it before Jan 15 09:59
vwbusguy kick is only used then if the person is disruptive to those getting help with current versions? Jan 15 09:59
EvilBob What is the new rule? Jan 15 09:59
*nirik is wondering where we are here.... Jan 15 10:00
EvilBob the old rule is "EOL Must upgrade" Jan 15 10:00
Sonar_Guy I dont see it as a new rule more a change in thinking. Jan 15 10:00
roguedaemon someone says "its fc2" someone says "upgrade" someone says "i cant" "too bad" blah balh Jan 15 10:00
Southern_Gentlem not our problem Jan 15 10:00
roguedaemon basically Jan 15 10:00
Southern_Gentlem contact godaddy Jan 15 10:00
roguedaemon lol usually Jan 15 10:01
roguedaemon or a pocket somewhere and just someone who needs to be clued in Jan 15 10:01
EvilBob what if the new rule is "EOL Should upgrade, if someone wants to help, take it to another channel" Jan 15 10:01
*Southern_Gentlem motions we continue as we have been always doing Jan 15 10:01
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opsec i think everyone should have their little hands held.. and we should all be super dee duper polite and huggy kissy to all fedora users.. and every new user should get a free bunny rabbit with every install Jan 15 10:02
vwbusguy the only thing is, when is kick used? Jan 15 10:02
roguedaemon i have never turned away a real bleeding edge dev type environment scenario, though i may have been fooled once or twice Jan 15 10:02
vwbusguy that is the operational difference, if any Jan 15 10:02
EvilBob vwbusguy: when they refuse to go to another channel Jan 15 10:02
Southern_Gentlem vwbusguy, when you feel they are being disruptive Jan 15 10:02
*roguedaemon pinches opsec's cheeks Jan 15 10:02
opsec tee hee Jan 15 10:02
roguedaemon so cute! Jan 15 10:03
opsec </pilsbury doughboy> Jan 15 10:03
roguedaemon bunny week is coming btw Jan 15 10:03
nirik EvilBob: I think we should just stick with the old rule... it's unclear to me what we are changing really. Jan 15 10:03
Southern_Gentlem +1 Jan 15 10:03
EvilBob nirik: +1 Jan 15 10:03
vwbusguy ok, someone comes in running fc3 has random issue, someone immediately says to upgrade and they say 'well I just need to set up a static IP and don't want to upgrade' If someone wants to help them in chan? Jan 15 10:03
opsec nirik: mostly we're changing diaper. Jan 15 10:03
opsec +s Jan 15 10:03
roguedaemon http://www.nationalrabbitweek.co.uk/ Jan 15 10:04
EvilBob vwbusguy: then they leave Jan 15 10:04
opsec roguedaemon: damn romans! Jan 15 10:04
EvilBob vwbusguy: just as it has always been Jan 15 10:04
vwbusguy this is community support Jan 15 10:04
nirik vwbusguy: if someone wants to tell them how to do that they can... if it's disrupting real help others are getting, we ask them to go somewhere else. Jan 15 10:04
roguedaemon zcat found that one Jan 15 10:04
vwbusguy why should we govern that if it's not interferring with someone else getting help Jan 15 10:04
EvilBob vwbusguy: they are free to create and work on it in another channel Jan 15 10:04
vwbusguy and if it's not cumbersome to those getting help? Jan 15 10:04
roguedaemon started with me quoting fifi from mad max "what is this, bunny week?!" Jan 15 10:05
Southern_Gentlem vwbusguy, its up to each and every op in the channel at that point isnt it Jan 15 10:05
nirik vwbusguy: if someone wants to provide community support for EOL releases, they can start #fedora-legacy-support ? Jan 15 10:05
Southern_Gentlem or #fedora-eol Jan 15 10:05
EvilBob Will a community member get kicked if they are disruptive to the EOL user getting help? Jan 15 10:05
roguedaemon ok, lets forget the EOL think, what about the spin offs Jan 15 10:05
nirik so what about remixes/spins/whatever? Jan 15 10:05
roguedaemon or remixes Jan 15 10:06
vwbusguy why don't we just create #Fedora-eol? Jan 15 10:06
roguedaemon yeah Jan 15 10:06
vwbusguy then the issue will be over? Jan 15 10:06
Southern_Gentlem roguedaemon, in the case of Omega it is fedora +rpmfusion Jan 15 10:06
nirik vwbusguy: feel free. Jan 15 10:06
nirik the issue won't be over I suspect. Jan 15 10:06
roguedaemon no way can we support a "respin" that has rpmfusion built in Jan 15 10:06
ivazquez Then we'll have somewhere to send people other than "the hell out of here". Jan 15 10:06
vwbusguy can we create #Fedora-eol and give all Fedora ops access and anyone who wants to can help there Jan 15 10:06
EvilBob vwbusguy: IMO it is still in bad form to create a forum for the support of these insecure systems Jan 15 10:06
roguedaemon i mean, redhat does have some interest here Jan 15 10:07
Southern_Gentlem roguedaemon, and we are telling them to install rpmfusion daily so what is the difference Jan 15 10:07
nirik vwbusguy: it won't work. Jan 15 10:07
roguedaemon we can pretend all we want, but piling on all that is too much Jan 15 10:07
vwbusguy EvilBob, then you must not like #redhat Jan 15 10:07
Southern_Gentlem roguedaemon, then how can we support fedora with rpmfusion bits Jan 15 10:07
opsec roguedaemon: i agree. Jan 15 10:07
EvilBob vwbusguy: never been there, have no reason to Jan 15 10:07
roguedaemon but then again, people can help them if they want? but would they be taking advantage of the existing environment Jan 15 10:07
vwbusguy nirik, why won't it work Jan 15 10:07
nirik vwbusguy: I personally have no desire to support EOL releases. Until you have a pool of people helping there, we will just get in #fedora: "I have a fc1 machine" "go to #fedora-eol" "No one there answered my question" Jan 15 10:08
opsec support for the current + last version is plenty. Jan 15 10:08
roguedaemon Southern_Gentlem: that one is the same, or at least is for now, thats the rub Jan 15 10:08
roguedaemon the same thing we are telling people to do Jan 15 10:08
EvilBob nirik: then the response is "Well then i guess you have to upgrade" Jan 15 10:08
nirik I could be wrong, you might have people interested in helping there... feel free to try it. ;) Jan 15 10:08
vwbusguy nirik, how will we get a pool of people without creating the chan first Jan 15 10:08
opsec there should be a CLEAR support outline on fedoraproject.org and it should be adhered to. Jan 15 10:08
Southern_Gentlem roguedaemon, so we will support omega because it is fedora= rpmfusion Jan 15 10:08
Southern_Gentlem now linpus is a totally different matter Jan 15 10:09
vwbusguy nirik, could we get Chanserv in there and all any Fedora ops that want to help in there? Jan 15 10:09
nirik vwbusguy: we could, but how many would? Jan 15 10:09
Southern_Gentlem nope Jan 15 10:09
roguedaemon Southern_Gentlem: but what does it turn into? Jan 15 10:09
EvilBob vwbusguy: you are free to create any channel you want Jan 15 10:09
Southern_Gentlem vwbusguy, i disagree Jan 15 10:09
roguedaemon down the road? Jan 15 10:09
*nirik asks for a raising of hands of who would help in #fedora-eol ? Jan 15 10:09
*vwbusguy raises hand Jan 15 10:09
Southern_Gentlem roguedaemon, we will have to cross that bridge when we get to it Jan 15 10:09
*thomasj no thanks Jan 15 10:09
*Sonar_Guy sits on his hands Jan 15 10:10
EvilBob vwbusguy: then create your channel Jan 15 10:10
*nirik puts his hands in his lap. Jan 15 10:10
roguedaemon Southern_Gentlem: yeah and we are watching Jan 15 10:10
Southern_Gentlem -100 Jan 15 10:10
*roguedaemon squints Jan 15 10:10
vwbusguy fair enough Jan 15 10:10
opsec eol support is a waste of energy Jan 15 10:11
nirik vwbusguy: perhaps posting to fedora list or forums might gather enough people? I just don't think there is enough people who would want to help there... Jan 15 10:11
roguedaemon like i said, it moves so fast these days keeping track of the differences between 2 versions is enough Jan 15 10:11
zless imagine a XY graph. -1 X axis is a bastardized FC1 remix godaddy thing; +1 is F10, -1 Y is a release-specific question; +1 Y is a generic rh/fedora/linux *nix question. i say we answer everything from -1,0 to 1,1  :) Jan 15 10:11
Southern_Gentlem vwbusguy, alot of us have been that road before Jan 15 10:11
EvilBob vwbusguy: create your channel, I will point people to it after working them over thoroughly with a CLUEx4 Jan 15 10:11
zless that would probably make more sense as an image Jan 15 10:11
opsec roguedaemon: again, a voice of reason. Jan 15 10:11
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opsec simplicity is key in support.. Jan 15 10:12
nirik so, on remix/spins, I think we should support where we can or know about the release... and point to other resources if we don't. Just like always. Jan 15 10:12
Southern_Gentlem opsec we support the current fedora release so for 1 month we are supporting 3 Jan 15 10:12
Sonar_Guy roguedaemon: I agree fully Jan 15 10:12
zless yep... Jan 15 10:12
roguedaemon and thats what fedora is Jan 15 10:12
vwbusguy EvilBob, my point is if the channel existed we could point eol people out of Fedora and if they can't get help there they probably weren't going to get it anyway. It is community support after all Jan 15 10:12
vwbusguy but at least that way we wouldn't have to have this discussion again Jan 15 10:12
Falstius if someone asks an EOL or remix question, tell them roughly how to fix it in current Fedora, warn them it might not work, and strongly suggest upgrading. Jan 15 10:12
roguedaemon but we cant kick the customer out, so we need a canned speech Jan 15 10:13
opsec Southern_Gentlem: i'm aware of that .. a month of overlap is acceptable.. Jan 15 10:13
EvilBob nirik: I think this is an easy one, if we know what it is and can help, we do, if we can't we sit on our hands and help them find resources Jan 15 10:13
roguedaemon i guess we already have one Jan 15 10:13
*nirik nods. Jan 15 10:13
vwbusguy how would upgrading a remix be helpful? Jan 15 10:13
opsec there needs to be a CRYSTAL CLEAR support outline on fp.org Jan 15 10:13
nirik Omega 10 should be pretty close to what we know. Linpus is scary different from anything I know. Jan 15 10:13
nirik but unless we say "nothing that isn't fedora" we should just use common sense and go on a case by case basis. Jan 15 10:14
vwbusguy say a Linpus user comes in and says 'How can I dual boot my machine' ? Jan 15 10:14
Southern_Gentlem omega is based on fc6 with a f8 custom kernel Jan 15 10:14
EvilBob vwbusguy: and I refuse to support someone wanting to run a system that is insecure, that will be used to send several million pieces of spam at the Fedora Unity mail servers and the servers at tummy.com Jan 15 10:14
nirik Southern_Gentlem: you mean linpus? Jan 15 10:14
vwbusguy EvilBob, but re-mixes are different Jan 15 10:14
Southern_Gentlem opps yes linpus Jan 15 10:14
zless linpus is f8 with their custom updater, kernel, and other packages Jan 15 10:15
vwbusguy ok, fair enough Jan 15 10:15
opsec anything that isn't an official fedora release should be ignored as a prospective support target. Jan 15 10:15
vwbusguy then we're back to Omega Jan 15 10:15
roguedaemon i think most of us can give advice to those people with remixes, unless its clearly non-standard Jan 15 10:15
roguedaemon EOL is EOL Jan 15 10:15
EvilBob vwbusguy: sorry toke me a minute to get that out, was a response to "It is community support after all" Jan 15 10:15
opsec non-fedora is non-fedora. Jan 15 10:15
roguedaemon opsec: i agree, but i sense a grey area there Jan 15 10:16
opsec there's ##linux for bastard distro questions Jan 15 10:16
nirik opsec: I disagree... Orange Sombrero or Omega are so close that it doesn't matter. Jan 15 10:16
vwbusguy all the bits of Omega are the same as most of our Fedora end users anyway Jan 15 10:16
opsec nirik: non-fedora clouds real fedora issues and development in my opinion Jan 15 10:16
vwbusguy AND considering you can enable RPMFusion in anaconda and get the same bits on install in Fedora Jan 15 10:17
roguedaemon vwbusguy: yeah and we can answer their questions most likely Jan 15 10:17
Southern_Gentlem we will have to look at each remix as it comes along Jan 15 10:17
EvilBob as long as you know what it is, it is current, and can help so be it Jan 15 10:17
roguedaemon but how far does it go Jan 15 10:17
vwbusguy roguedaemon, until we talk about it again, haha Jan 15 10:17
opsec it's like rich people having 10 forks and 15 spoons on the table .. what's the real benefit to fedora? Jan 15 10:17
roguedaemon we've all seen distros change, faster every day Jan 15 10:17
nirik opsec: we encourage people to remix and spin fedora in new ways and still get support. Jan 15 10:17
roguedaemon once it becomes truly non-fedora they need to be cut off, but who is to know Jan 15 10:17
roguedaemon i'm not watching all those others Jan 15 10:18
vwbusguy roguedaemon, helpers discretion Jan 15 10:18
Sonar_Guy roguedaemon: that is my issue with remixes Jan 15 10:18
opsec nirik: perhaps #fedora-spins for those people? Jan 15 10:18
roguedaemon Sonar_Guy: mine too Jan 15 10:18
opsec each of us have only so much time for our lives .. who wants to support 900 offshoots? Jan 15 10:18
vwbusguy no one is obligated to support a re-spin Jan 15 10:18
nirik opsec: that will just divide up resources... until they reach a point where there are enough seperate people wanting support on them, and willing to help support them. Jan 15 10:18
roguedaemon and nirik has a valid point too Jan 15 10:19
vwbusguy but if someone wants to help they can Jan 15 10:19
vwbusguy IMO Jan 15 10:19
Sonar_Guy per the trademark guidelines you can have some fedora packages and still be called a remix Jan 15 10:19
EvilBob when a 'normal fix' does not work on a remix.... then we will know it has gone to far Jan 15 10:19
roguedaemon how far do we want to go beyond the 2 versions Jan 15 10:19
vwbusguy as long as people who are running current Fedora can get support Jan 15 10:19
nirik vwbusguy: agreed. Jan 15 10:19
opsec once you decide as a user you need to step outside of an official release, it should be automatically assumed you will have far less outside support avenues Jan 15 10:19
roguedaemon loosen up the OT on oddballs and speak up when its too far Jan 15 10:20
vwbusguy opsec, that is th eopposite fo what Fedora was trying to achieve with 're-mixes' Jan 15 10:20
roguedaemon or just watch it quietly Jan 15 10:20
opsec vwbusguy: so i should try and keep track of what every person who wants a slightly different fedora spin is doing? Jan 15 10:20
Sonar_Guy roguedaemon: but that is where we run into issues Jan 15 10:20
vwbusguy not if you don't want to Jan 15 10:21
roguedaemon but we all know theres going to be a ton of fedora spin-offs eventually Jan 15 10:21
nirik opsec: no, you personally can just decide not to. Jan 15 10:21
roguedaemon Sonar_Guy: yep Jan 15 10:21
Sonar_Guy roguedaemon: I may watch quietly but another op may consider it off topic Jan 15 10:21
vwbusguy opsec, if you only want to support a blessed version then that's up to you Jan 15 10:21
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opsec it's in fedoras/the communities best interest to support only fedora mainstream Jan 15 10:21
roguedaemon if i cant find it in my fedora i'll say hey thats an oddball Jan 15 10:21
opsec it will advance faster Jan 15 10:21
vwbusguy are we settled on this? Jan 15 10:22
EvilBob can we create a wiki page for these mixes? Jan 15 10:22
roguedaemon dont they have their own pages? Jan 15 10:22
vwbusguy EvilBob, if one doesn't exist it should Jan 15 10:22
EvilBob "hey this is different" as we find them Jan 15 10:22
roguedaemon maybe link to them as a community Jan 15 10:23
EvilBob so if someone has GibbonGutz 10 we can look and see Jan 15 10:23
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roguedaemon just to show what else is happening Jan 15 10:23
nirik EvilBob: +1, we should make a page with the list... Jan 15 10:23
roguedaemon but we should keep our stuff to the 2 releases Jan 15 10:23
EvilBob if GibbonGutz is FEdora with different artwork... Jan 15 10:24
roguedaemon and keep it clear Jan 15 10:24
EvilBob that is easy to support Jan 15 10:24
Sonar_Guy nirik: then the fab needs to dictate that in the trademark guidelines, as part of using the secondary mark Jan 15 10:24
nirik EvilBob: and some links to point people to for FooBarBaz which is very different. Jan 15 10:24
nirik Sonar_Guy: ? Jan 15 10:25
EvilBob yup up Jan 15 10:25
roguedaemon the board Jan 15 10:25
Sonar_Guy currently there is no guideline for using the remix Jan 15 10:25
Sonar_Guy mark, Jan 15 10:25
opsec a wiki page with a list of respins, and their detailed list of changes/modifications from official fedora would be a good idea Jan 15 10:25
*Southern_Gentlem wonders is we have beaten this horse to death yet Jan 15 10:25
roguedaemon Southern_Gentlem: just about :) Jan 15 10:25
opsec in some circles, horse meat is a prized possession Jan 15 10:26
roguedaemon is anyone unhappy that has something to say? Jan 15 10:26
Sonar_Guy so how do we know when somebody does? Where do we get the information to put on the wiki page? Jan 15 10:26
Southern_Gentlem but it doesnt get us anything in here Jan 15 10:26
vwbusguy well, I'm going to try to star a #Fedora-eol, not sure how we'd advertise it. Maybe helpful to put in the title Jan 15 10:26
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roguedaemon vwbusguy: wow thats a tall order Jan 15 10:27
vwbusguy but for re-mixes I think I'm happy with where we Jan 15 10:27
vwbusguy re at Jan 15 10:27
vwbusguy roguedaemon, topic Jan 15 10:27
vwbusguy roguedaemon, sorry, lol Jan 15 10:27
*vwbusguy needs more caffeine, bad Jan 15 10:27
nirik vwbusguy: good luck! :) Jan 15 10:27
roguedaemon we do hit EOL people a little hard sometimes, thats the only problem i see Jan 15 10:27
roguedaemon but they have to be told Jan 15 10:28
EvilBob roguedaemon: we hit hard when they don't listen Jan 15 10:28
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*Southern_Gentlem lets move on Jan 15 10:28
roguedaemon yes of course Jan 15 10:28
EvilBob roguedaemon: we hit hard when they ignore what they are told and ask the question 15 times in a half hour Jan 15 10:28
roguedaemon EvilBob: sometimes too hard too fast, but it is irc Jan 15 10:28
roguedaemon thats probably just normal dynamic Jan 15 10:29
Southern_Gentlem bot next? Jan 15 10:29
EvilBob I look forward to vwbusguy's 3 month report Jan 15 10:29
roguedaemon yeah wheres my tutorial page Jan 15 10:29
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roguedaemon i registered but i have no clue how to use it Jan 15 10:29
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - bot Jan 15 10:29
nirik ok, I need to write up a cheat sheet... Jan 15 10:30
Southern_Gentlem roguedaemon, we can help you there Jan 15 10:30
opsec roguedaemon: there needs to be a crystal clear official page about EOL and what is/is not supported.. that should end any nonsense. Jan 15 10:30
vwbusguy EvilBob, me2 :-) Jan 15 10:30
nirik so currently we have fedbot. It's running here on my machine. It's doing flood control in channel without any intervention. Jan 15 10:30
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Southern_Gentlem nirik this morning i was tring to advertise our meeting in fedora Jan 15 10:30
Southern_Gentlem <Southern_Gentlem> say #fedora ***IRC Support Meeting in #fedora-meeting in 20 Minutes*** Jan 15 10:30
Southern_Gentlem <fedbot> Error: That channel has set its capabilities so as to disallow the use of this plugin. Jan 15 10:30
roguedaemon opsec: yeah the canned statement Jan 15 10:30
nirik It should pretty much ignore anything anyone sends it in channel Jan 15 10:30
nirik Southern_Gentlem: yeah, I took away that capability... need to add it to ops... Jan 15 10:31
opsec roguedaemon: it needs to be clear, non-offensive, and straight to the point as possible Jan 15 10:31
roguedaemon opsec: bot Jan 15 10:31
nirik it can also do kban and chanban's that have a timeout. So you can kick someone for 1 day and it will automagically remove it 1 day later. Jan 15 10:31
nirik you need to /msg fedbot register on it, then see me and I can enable capabilities for you. Jan 15 10:32
roguedaemon is the bot faster than my lightning fast kickban? Jan 15 10:32
Southern_Gentlem yep and its doing it so your name isnt seen Jan 15 10:32
roguedaemon i think i got it under 3 seconds op/kick/deop Jan 15 10:32
nirik roguedaemon: might be a bit faster... the nice thing is that it removes at timeout without you having to remember. Jan 15 10:33
nirik roguedaemon: should be /msg fedbot kban1d foobar Jan 15 10:33
Southern_Gentlem NAME kban1d Jan 15 10:34
Southern_Gentlem CMD msg fedbot kban #fedora %2 86400 %3 Jan 15 10:34
nirik down the road I would like to look at using one of the KB plugins... Jan 15 10:34
roguedaemon i was just gonna say you must have a cmd Jan 15 10:34
nirik so we could use it to point people to resources, etc. Jan 15 10:34
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nirik there is also a kban1d alias... Jan 15 10:34
roguedaemon Southern_Gentlem: whats %3 Jan 15 10:34
roguedaemon oh the message Jan 15 10:34
Southern_Gentlem reason Jan 15 10:34
roguedaemon man how long does that take Jan 15 10:35
Southern_Gentlem as fast as you can type Jan 15 10:35
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roguedaemon my < 3 seconds is with userlist buttons :) Jan 15 10:35
zless roguedaemon, fedbot will stay opped, so no waiting around for the chanserv op toggle anymore Jan 15 10:36
roguedaemon i guess i can adapt Jan 15 10:36
vwbusguy whose the GC for #Fedora ? Jan 15 10:36
Southern_Gentlem /kban1w roguedaemon because Jan 15 10:36
vwbusguy nirik, that you? Jan 15 10:36
nirik anyhow, any further questions on the bot? Happy to accept patches or ideas. Jan 15 10:36
nirik vwbusguy: GC? Jan 15 10:36
EvilBob GC? Jan 15 10:36
Southern_Gentlem spot Jan 15 10:36
vwbusguy group contact Jan 15 10:36
Southern_Gentlem spot Jan 15 10:36
EvilBob spot owns all #fedora* Jan 15 10:36
nirik vwbusguy: yeah, spot is for #fedora* Jan 15 10:36
*spot nods Jan 15 10:36
roguedaemon ok, i'll warm up to it, fear not Jan 15 10:36
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vwbusguy spot, do I have your blessing? Jan 15 10:36
Southern_Gentlem vwbusguy, tell him what you are doing Jan 15 10:37
vwbusguy spot, do you care if I maintain #Fedora-eol ? Jan 15 10:37
EvilBob some would say "Spot is FEEDDDOOOORRRRRAAAAAA!" Jan 15 10:37
vwbusguy spot, for Fedora EOL community support Jan 15 10:37
spot vwbusguy: nope. have fun. :) Jan 15 10:37
roguedaemon what is spot blessing now? Jan 15 10:38
Southern_Gentlem a stain on the rug Jan 15 10:38
roguedaemon oh heh Jan 15 10:38
EvilBob spot: forgive him, he is too young to remember Legacy Jan 15 10:38
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Southern_Gentlem spot, i am willing to be on the ops list if needed Jan 15 10:39
roguedaemon not like he couldnt imagine the burden Jan 15 10:39
spot EvilBob: for some people, the only way they learn that fire burns is to stick their hand in it. ;) Jan 15 10:39
EvilBob lol Jan 15 10:39
Southern_Gentlem spot we agree Jan 15 10:39
roguedaemon vwbusguy: think about it for a while Jan 15 10:39
*nirik nods. Jan 15 10:39
nirik ok, any more questions on bot? Jan 15 10:39
vwbusguy channel is now registered, chanserv is set up Jan 15 10:39
---nirik has changed the topic to: IRC Support SIG - Open floor Jan 15 10:40
nirik any further items to bring up? Jan 15 10:40
*roguedaemon falls on open floor Jan 15 10:40
vwbusguy Can we add #Fedora-eol to /topc in #Fedora Jan 15 10:40
roguedaemon sorry ive been so absent, i'm having a hard time keeping up Jan 15 10:40
EvilBob I disagree Jan 15 10:40
Southern_Gentlem i agree Jan 15 10:41
EvilBob same argument as supporting it in the channel Jan 15 10:41
nirik vwbusguy: do you want to try and get further people there first? Jan 15 10:41
roguedaemon vwbusguy: just redirect people there in convo Jan 15 10:41
EvilBob endorsing the use of EOL releases is bad juju Jan 15 10:41
roguedaemon after giving them the third degree about EOL Jan 15 10:42
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roguedaemon topic is a bad idea Jan 15 10:42
vwbusguy nirik, ok, we can do that Jan 15 10:42
Southern_Gentlem that way we can put f9-f10 | EOL:#fedora-eol Jan 15 10:42
EvilBob I like roguedaemon's idea Jan 15 10:42
*nirik also does. Jan 15 10:42
Southern_Gentlem ok Jan 15 10:42
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vwbusguy Southern_Gentlem, yeah, maybe it will deflect some from the beginning Jan 15 10:43
EvilBob work with the user to upgrade, if they don't get it, send them over Jan 15 10:43
roguedaemon less encouragement Jan 15 10:43
thomasj to the hit-and-run-channel Jan 15 10:43
roguedaemon dire straits Jan 15 10:43
EvilBob deflecting fromt he beginning will allow them to miss the message of "Hey you really need to upgrade" Jan 15 10:44
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zless vwbusguy, hand out EOL exploit links like candy. kthx. Jan 15 10:44
roguedaemon its all going to happen in channel anyway Jan 15 10:45
EvilBob zless: a "this is how you compromise F7" class might make the whole EOL thing more fun. Jan 15 10:45
roguedaemon mostly Jan 15 10:45
*Southern_Gentlem mentions that version of Fedora is EOL and instructs EvilBob to read /topic and directs EvilBob to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Fedora-EOL-Support Jan 15 10:45
vwbusguy zless, you're welcome to join the chan and do it yourself, lol Jan 15 10:45
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*nirik will close the meeting in 60 unless someone has something more to discuss. Jan 15 10:45
vwbusguy EvilBob, look at the /topic in #Fedora-eol. I encourage upgrading Jan 15 10:46
roguedaemon Southern_Gentlem: yes we need a good fedbot canned speech Jan 15 10:46
EvilBob vwbusguy: I am sure you will, I do not doubt that Jan 15 10:46
*zless would just like to wish everyone a happy bunny week (?). bye. Jan 15 10:46
EvilBob vwbusguy: it is others that concern me Jan 15 10:46
roguedaemon zless: fuzzy Jan 15 10:46
EvilBob vwbusguy: you are mostly sane Jan 15 10:46
vwbusguy haha, u wish Jan 15 10:46
roguedaemon a happy fuzzy bunny week Jan 15 10:46
roguedaemon i'm pretty sure fifi in mad max meant "what is this, bunny week?" as an insult Jan 15 10:47
nirik ok, thanks everyone for coming. Have fun out there. Jan 15 10:47

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