From Fedora Project Wiki

Bug Triage Meeting :: 2009-Feb-10


  • tk009
  • jds2001
  • poelcat
  • mcepl
  • adamw
  • comphappy

Previous Meeting Follow-up

  • Review the component list of packages to target for F11.
  • Continue discussion on team and individual goals for the F11 development cycle.


  • Refine the general targeting of the new component list to be a more specific and measurable set of goals.
  • New triage tool link added to BugZappers/Tools (highly recommend by mcepl and fcami).
  • Revive Bug Triage Days as an introduction for new triagers and team building.

Progress on Metrics Reporting

  • Comphappy will have the metrics report in an alpha state by this weekend.

Note: He has requested further information on our F11 goals to incorporate tracking them into the metrics report.

Follow-up Actions

TK009 will-

  • Replace the current component list Here with the newly drafted component list.
    • Redirect the former list to the new list.
      • write a "call to action" on fedora-test-list to engage the community for input and idea's, and continue the discussion on refining BugZappers goals for F11 development cycle.

IRC Transcript

poelcat who is here? Feb 10 07:00
adamw fnaarrrrglllle Feb 10 07:01
poelcat adamw: hi Feb 10 07:01
poelcat jds2001: mcepl ping Feb 10 07:01
adamw kruzzzzpppg Feb 10 07:01
mcepl pon Feb 10 07:01
mcepl g Feb 10 07:01
poelcat who else are we missing? Feb 10 07:01
adamw i'm sorry, if you wanted awake AND coherent it should've been specified on the invite Feb 10 07:01
adamw :) Feb 10 07:01
adamw fcami? Feb 10 07:02
poelcat last week we created a component list of packages to target for F11 Feb 10 07:03
poelcat are there any more thoughts about this? Feb 10 07:03
poelcat i also moved that information to BugZappers/ActiveTriagers Feb 10 07:04
adamw is that the most appropriate place for it, btw? Feb 10 07:04
adamw it doesn't feel...intuitive Feb 10 07:04
*poelcat always open to better ideas :) Feb 10 07:04
adamw oh, well-played :) Feb 10 07:05
poelcat in my wiki travels i recently came across BugZappers/Components Feb 10 07:05
poelcat which i think might detract from our current plan Feb 10 07:06
poelcat i'm not sure how that page came to be Feb 10 07:06
adamw two things i always look at in this case: Feb 10 07:07
adamw What Links Here Feb 10 07:07
adamw (answer - nothing) Feb 10 07:07
adamw history Feb 10 07:07
adamw (answer - two tiny changes since it was imported from old wiki) Feb 10 07:07
mcepl while we are still in IRC, me and fcami slightly edited BugZappers/Tools -- I think should be a thing every bug triager has installed Feb 10 07:07
adamw conclusion: if you killed it, quite probably no-one would know Feb 10 07:07
tk009 the wiki admin would know =) Feb 10 07:08
mcepl moreover, the bottom of the page seems to indicate that it was supposed to be regenerated anyway. Let's save the script somewhere and kill this page Feb 10 07:08
adamw tk009: hehe. Feb 10 07:09
poelcat adamw: how can we tell what links to it? Feb 10 07:09
poelcat mcepl: +1 Feb 10 07:09
adamw poelcat: there's a 'what links here' link in the left sidebar Feb 10 07:09
adamw poelcat: always is in wikis, it's part of mediawiki Feb 10 07:09
*poelcat learns a new trick :) Feb 10 07:09
adamw doesn't tell you what *external* pages link to it, but it's usually a helpful indicator of whether the page is actually really important Feb 10 07:10
poelcat so what is the right way to kill this page? Feb 10 07:10
poelcat IOW we can't delete it Feb 10 07:10
tk009 that has to be done by a wiki admin Feb 10 07:11
tk009 you can only set it for delete Feb 10 07:11
mcepl poelcat: saved on my page User:Mcepl Feb 10 07:11
poelcat or we could create a redirect to ActiveTriagers Feb 10 07:11
adamw I don't think a blind redirect would be appropriate in this case, again since ActiveTriagers doesn't really map perfectly to 'components' Feb 10 07:12
adamw maybe a short sentence which explains the situation and links there? Feb 10 07:12
poelcat hey, what about we add the key components to this page? Feb 10 07:12
poelcat the ones we decided from last week? Feb 10 07:12
mcepl actually there is link to Components on ActiveTriagers page Feb 10 07:12
adamw heh Feb 10 07:12
poelcat BugZappers/Meetings/Minutes-2009-Feb-03 Feb 10 07:13
adamw well, just make that the page for the current component list and take it out of activetriagers? Feb 10 07:14
poelcat yes, brilliant :) Feb 10 07:14
poelcat adamw: does that then make activetriagers page more focused? Feb 10 07:15
adamw yes, it would Feb 10 07:15
poelcat the power of collaboration :) Feb 10 07:15
adamw you can still leave the 'component' bit in the active triager table, too, since you don't really need to see the list to understand it Feb 10 07:15
adamw and if you do want to see the list it's only a click away... Feb 10 07:15
poelcat who would like to make the changes? Feb 10 07:15
tk009 I will =) Feb 10 07:16
poelcat tk009: thanks! Feb 10 07:16
poelcat for the past few weeks i've been urging us to get some goals in place for F11 Feb 10 07:17
poelcat how do people feel about the direction we are heading? Feb 10 07:17
tk009 concerned Feb 10 07:18
poelcat tk009: talk to us :) Feb 10 07:18
mcepl well, over the weekend I finally got on the top of my work bugs (no NEW and no old NEEDINFO bugs), so now I am more open to actually make number of bugs smaller; I think we can do something useable -- it won't so glorious as we would like to have it, but given our numbers I cannot expect much more Feb 10 07:18
mcepl if you want one word, then it is ... challenging; which is both good and bad Feb 10 07:19
poelcat tk009: did you want to expound on that? Feb 10 07:20
tk009 my thoughts are what are we doing here, how are we making an impact. What is our primary goal Feb 10 07:20
tk009 yes sorry Feb 10 07:20
tk009 since I;ve joined the zappers Feb 10 07:21
tk009 I've felt like I am on my own Feb 10 07:21
tk009 in everything Feb 10 07:21
tk009 we are all doing our own thing Feb 10 07:22
tk009 yet not really a team Feb 10 07:22
tk009 I am still not sure what are primary objetive is Feb 10 07:22
tk009 and how that benifits the project Feb 10 07:22
comphappy I agree with tk009 about the team part, I also wonder what we have really done to set reasonable goals, I think we have missed everyone we set last year Feb 10 07:23
adamw so, on the wiki it says: "Our primary mission is to track down and shoot Fedora bugs in . We also strive to be a bridge between users and developers that aids in fixing and closing bugs" - you feel that's...too vague? not helpful? Feb 10 07:23
tk009 I made my own goal as it looked like we would never come agreement on what that is Feb 10 07:23
tk009 yes adam I do Feb 10 07:23
mcepl tk009: OK, so what's your goal? Feb 10 07:23
tk009 we dont "shoot" bugs Feb 10 07:24
tk009 400 bugs this dev cycle Feb 10 07:24
tk009 get one persoin to join the project Feb 10 07:24
tk009 I can do both alone without direction Feb 10 07:24
adamw 400 - triaged? closed? Feb 10 07:24
tk009 triaged Feb 10 07:24
adamw ok. Feb 10 07:24
tk009 closed is not something i could do Feb 10 07:24
tk009 =) Feb 10 07:24
adamw :) Feb 10 07:24
mcepl (most of them time, that is) Feb 10 07:25
comphappy If I can get a feel for what type goals people want to set, I can tweak my traige metrics app to track them better Feb 10 07:25
tk009 comp Feb 10 07:25
tk009 on that note Feb 10 07:25
tk009 how soe could that be in place? Feb 10 07:25
tk009 I would love to see the nubers Feb 10 07:25
comphappy (which should be alpha this weekend) Feb 10 07:25
adamw tk009: poelcat said last week's meeting was on setting goals - were you here for that? did you feel that still useful and agreed goals weren't put in place? Feb 10 07:25
poelcat tk009: comphappy i agree w/ what you are saying re: being a team... how can we change that? Feb 10 07:25
tk009 sorry my m key doesnt like me Feb 10 07:25
tk009 I not sure I want to say this as it might not be understood Feb 10 07:26
poelcat adamw: i think tk009 is pointing to how slow the process is going Feb 10 07:26
tk009 we need a strong leader Feb 10 07:26
comphappy poelcat: somewhat unified goal, even a time where we all try to work at the same time would help Feb 10 07:26
tk009 I know we are all equal here, however Feb 10 07:26
tk009 there is a time to get things done Feb 10 07:27
tk009 and we seem to be letting it slip by Feb 10 07:27
adamw comphappy: i like the 'time when we all try to work together' idea - it may get more people in irc too Feb 10 07:27
comphappy I think part of it also is many of the people in bugzappers are also part of other teams, or have other commitments Feb 10 07:27
tk009 yes Feb 10 07:27
tk009 that is an issue Feb 10 07:27
tk009 yet it shouldnt hold us back Feb 10 07:28
tk009 we are letting it is all Feb 10 07:28
poelcat long ago some of us tried to orgainzie "bug days"... they were not usually well attended Feb 10 07:28
adamw how long did you try? Feb 10 07:28
poelcat is that something that could build a little team spirit? Feb 10 07:28
tk009 yes I read that Feb 10 07:28
tk009 yes I think so Feb 10 07:28
tk009 jsut like us talking more brings us together Feb 10 07:29
poelcat i think we tried them monthly somewhat inconsistently Feb 10 07:29
comphappy That might be something worth trying Feb 10 07:29
adamw i'd say it should be weekly, and consistent Feb 10 07:29
poelcat but they could be like some of our meetings here... me talking to myself :) Feb 10 07:29
mcepl poelcat: I think we should restart with understanding that first couple of times (10 or so) we would be the only attendees. Feb 10 07:29
adamw just as a time when everyone in the group gets together and works together, as comphappy suggested Feb 10 07:30
adamw mcepl: exactly - you've got to stick at things like that even when they don't seem to be working Feb 10 07:30
mcepl poelcat: well, after some time talking to yourself you have now whole five people or so Feb 10 07:30
adamw look at it this way - if you're there, and you declare the official Start of Bug Day and work on a few bugs, and no-one shows up, what've you lost? nothing, really. the time it took to type the 'we're starting now' message. the work you did is still useful Feb 10 07:31
poelcat :) Feb 10 07:31
adamw so it costs nothing to keep showing up and trying Feb 10 07:31
comphappy well it looks like there are some good ideas flowing here, sorry I have to go... I will keep people posted when I get the metrics TB app out the door Feb 10 07:31
tk009 poelcat: I dont like you are the lead here. if yo uare not here we dont even meet Feb 10 07:31
tk009 thanks comphappy Feb 10 07:31
poelcat tk009: ? Feb 10 07:31
tk009 we should meet even if there are only two of us here Feb 10 07:31
tk009 we depend on you to much Feb 10 07:32
mcepl tk009: actually, this is my fault -- I should be able to step to poelcat's shoes when necessary. Feb 10 07:32
poelcat adamw: yes, but it gets old after a while and then when other things compete for your time it gets harder and harder to stay motivated Feb 10 07:32
adamw it would be nice to have someone not who felt able to run meetings if no-one showed up Feb 10 07:32
adamw er, no-one i mean Feb 10 07:32
tk009 yes Feb 10 07:32
tk009 that is so what I want Feb 10 07:33
adamw poelcat: true, I know what you mean :\ but i think it is important to try for a while at least... Feb 10 07:33
tk009 the people here now are not going anywhere Feb 10 07:34
tk009 we will be here even in the "suck" times Feb 10 07:34
tk009 poelcat: the core you wanted to build is here Feb 10 07:34
adamw tk009: so, I want to get a feel - say you come in for a meeting, poelcat and mcepl aren't here, but you and a couple other guys are Feb 10 07:34
adamw what happens? Feb 10 07:34
tk009 I hold the meeting Feb 10 07:35
adamw i mean, at present Feb 10 07:35
poelcat tk009: :) Feb 10 07:35
tk009 ada < iam new so I will make mistakes, I wont however stop trying Feb 10 07:35
adamw tk009: that's awesome, i think it's totally the right way to go Feb 10 07:36
mcepl well, it would be helpful to have more agreed upon agendas in advance. So far in the last couple of meetings we concluded with some overview of what's expected for the next meeting; I would be glad if we were able to be consistent with this Feb 10 07:36
adamw right - perhaps the Meetings page could list upcoming meetings as well as minutes for past meetings Feb 10 07:36
adamw and have the agenda there Feb 10 07:37
tk009 I would rather we make decisions in the time we have. it shouldnt take 4 meeting to get going Feb 10 07:37
adamw that would help in the case that the expected moderator doesn't show up Feb 10 07:37
mcepl moreover, I think there is a good way in one-to-one mentoring -- I talk with fcami anytime (mostly on Saturday nights ;-)) so I feel I could help him in mentoring. For any newbies, catch somebody more experienced!!! Feb 10 07:37
adamw tk009: good point, we're talking about talking here...should we get back to your problem with goals and team spirit? Feb 10 07:38
tk009 no Feb 10 07:38
tk009 we should make you goal Feb 10 07:38
tk009 that is most important right now Feb 10 07:38
tk009 our=you Feb 10 07:38
*jds2001 here, very late Feb 10 07:38
tk009 welcome jds =) Feb 10 07:39
adamw poelcat: what was decided last week about goals? Feb 10 07:39
poelcat adamw: we mostly arrived at a component list Feb 10 07:39
*poelcat is still holding out for a list of 2 or 3 tangible things we can say we are going to do for F11 Feb 10 07:39
adamw OK, so the thing about focusing on that restricted list of components...which is useful but not a goal exactly... Feb 10 07:40
poelcat and then really do them... IOW earn some credibility :) Feb 10 07:40
adamw well that sounds like what tk009 wants too Feb 10 07:40
poelcat adamw: correct, it was a narrowing process from Feb 10 07:40
tk009 I chose my component as packagekit Feb 10 07:40
tk009 I contacted the dev Feb 10 07:40
tk009 he knows I will be working on his stuff Feb 10 07:40
mcepl poelcat: what's wrong with BugZappers/ActiveTriagers Feb 10 07:41
mcepl ? Feb 10 07:41
tk009 its in transition Feb 10 07:41
poelcat mcepl: at the end of F11 how will people look at that page and know that the BugZappers delivered for F11 ? Feb 10 07:41
poelcat mcepl: i think getting to the list of components was a good milestone, but we still need to say what we are going to deliver Feb 10 07:42
adamw i'm just playing with bugzilla btw Feb 10 07:42
adamw trying to come up with something that could help with goals Feb 10 07:42
mcepl poelcat: no NEW Rawhide bug in that component, no duplicate bug, and no old NEEDINFO (i.e., older than 30 days). All blocking bugs block F11{Target,Blocker} Feb 10 07:43
*poelcat is open to other ideas, but I keep coming back to the thought that the best way to show that we are relevant to the project and that we are helping is to explicitly say what we are going to do and then do it Feb 10 07:43
tk009 if I ran this meeting off course sorry Feb 10 07:44
poelcat tk009: it needed to be said and I'm glad you said it :) Feb 10 07:44
adamw damn. i don't know if the bugzilla report function is broken or i'm just using it wrong... Feb 10 07:44
jds2001 adamw: i use it somewhat frequently Feb 10 07:45
poelcat i think the other thing that could really help us is continuing this conversation and ones like it on fedora-test-list Feb 10 07:45
jds2001 adamw: it is somewhat broken - in that if you click on a link in a report, you might not get to the set of bugs purportedly represented by that link :) Feb 10 07:45
poelcat our progress has been slow because we only talk here, once a week for an hour Feb 10 07:45
adamw jds2001: ah. i must be using it wrong then. well, my idea is - it's actually quite easy (if you're not a 7am idiot like me) to generate little graphs of how many bugs are in what state Feb 10 07:45
tk009 agree poelcat Feb 10 07:46
adamw which would be a good way to get a concrete feel for what's actually going on in triage Feb 10 07:46
tk009 I dont like the lists but the yare what we have Feb 10 07:46
jds2001 adamw: i generate tabular reports and then use something else for pretty graphs :) Feb 10 07:46
adamw jds2001: do you put it up anywhere? Feb 10 07:46
poelcat adamw: might be handy Feb 10 07:46
adamw i was thinking that it would be a good idea to just look at how many bugs are being triaged (which should be pretty easy to ballpark) Feb 10 07:46
jds2001 nope, just do it mostly adhoc Feb 10 07:47
adamw and that immediately gives a feel for what kind of an impact triage is having, and you can set goals based on it Feb 10 07:47
poelcat would someone be willing to summarize the key issues we've discussed here and start a mail thread Feb 10 07:47
adamw tk009: what do you think? Feb 10 07:47
poelcat on fedora-test-list? Feb 10 07:47
tk009 yes Feb 10 07:47
tk009 and yes Feb 10 07:47
poelcat we've only got a few minutes left today Feb 10 07:48
poelcat we need to keep discussing on the list or we'll be right back at the same place next week Feb 10 07:48
mcepl poelcat: that's not correct -- I am always (whenever I am awake and on IRC) present on #fedora-bugzappers and try to help there. Feb 10 07:48
rdieter you folks about done? was planning on a kde sig meeting here in a bit. :) (if not, we can go elsewhere) Feb 10 07:48
mcepl don't we have 12 minutes to go? Feb 10 07:49
tk009 we will some brother Feb 10 07:49
poelcat rdieter: we'll be done by top of the hour Feb 10 07:49
poelcat mcepl: yes, but the discussions die until I revive them at the next meeting :) Feb 10 07:49
tk009 my typing is so bad today Feb 10 07:49
rdieter oops, sorry, my clock was fast. Feb 10 07:49
adamw tk009: so, apart from a simple metric on number or %age of bugs triaged - are there any other goals you think should be set? Feb 10 07:49
tk009 we will continue this on the list Feb 10 07:49
mcepl to make poelcat happy I think we should add to BugZappers/ActiveTriagers rule that each of these components should be fully triaged -- i.e., ... (the list is above :43). Feb 10 07:50
tk009 I have ideas how the bugzappers really benifit the project Feb 10 07:50
mcepl tk009: go ahead Feb 10 07:51
tk009 I am not sure bug triaged is truely it Feb 10 07:51
poelcat mcepl: lol you don't have to make me happy i just thought it would help us overall :) Feb 10 07:51
tk009 this is a stepping stone to do more in the project Feb 10 07:51
tk009 a gateway Feb 10 07:51
tk009 to bring peopl in Feb 10 07:51
mcepl poelcat: (very sweet voice) I just wanna make you happy ;-) Feb 10 07:51
tk009 that is it best asset to the project right now Feb 10 07:51
tk009 you know from being on the fedroa forms that the "community" doesnt fully believe in what we are doing here Feb 10 07:52
adamw we, as in the bugzappers? people involved in fedora? Feb 10 07:53
mcepl you mean, fedora forums? Feb 10 07:53
mcepl tk009: ^^^ Feb 10 07:53
tk009 yes we bugzappers Feb 10 07:53
tk009 and yes mcepl Feb 10 07:53
mcepl tk009: nobody cares about fedora forums Feb 10 07:53
tk009 I do Feb 10 07:53
adamw mcepl: I do. Feb 10 07:53
tk009 its what made me coe here Feb 10 07:53
mcepl (sorry to be brutal, but it is so) Feb 10 07:53
mcepl tk009: OK, sorry Feb 10 07:53
tk009 I know the users dont count Feb 10 07:54
tk009 I am one remember =) Feb 10 07:54
tk009 but that is how i got here Feb 10 07:54
mcepl they do -- very much Feb 10 07:54
adamw don't want to get off track, but, mcepl - fedora forums are where a bunch of people who use your product every day hang out and talk about it. you should care about it, even if caring doesn't mean going there (it's not the same thing) Feb 10 07:54
tk009 that is our recuiting pool Feb 10 07:54
tk009 those forums are we new triagers are going to come from Feb 10 07:55
adamw tk009: so, you want to see the bugzappers as a group through which people get involved in the fedora project and then...move on? to what? Feb 10 07:55
tk009 I fully believe that Feb 10 07:55
*poelcat looks at the clock...who is going to write the call to action on fedora-test-list so that we have a clear go-forward plan this time next week? Feb 10 07:55
tk009 not move contribute more Feb 10 07:55
adamw tk009: i agree, a big forum community like that is a vital source of new people if handled correctly Feb 10 07:55
adamw tk009: sorry, that's what I meant - move on within fedora, so - contribute as in...packaging? Feb 10 07:55
poelcat i just realized I'm on vacation next week, so we'll need a volunteer to organize and lead the meeting Feb 10 07:56
tk009 I would like to poelcat Feb 10 07:56
poelcat tk009: thank you! Feb 10 07:56
adamw yaay tk Feb 10 07:56
tk009 mcepl or myself will or adam =P Feb 10 07:56
mcepl adamw, tk009: I really apologize -- yes, they do matter Feb 10 07:56
adamw tk009: you should do it, you've been around longer than me and it's awesome to have people do stuff :) Feb 10 07:56
tk009 I no you didnt mean it that way brother Feb 10 07:56
tk009 I didnt take offence Feb 10 07:56
adamw mcepl: np :) sorry, i just get sensitive about forums :) Feb 10 07:57
tk009 everyone does =) Feb 10 07:57
adamw hehe Feb 10 07:57
tk009 wait till adam see what I wrote Feb 10 07:57
tk009 he may not like me anymore Feb 10 07:57
adamw tk009: in my thread? i saw it already, don't worry :) i'll pm you about it after this Feb 10 07:57
tk009 in response to his forum post Feb 10 07:57
tk009 I ma blunt Feb 10 07:58
tk009 sorry if it seems rude Feb 10 07:58
adamw poelcat: i can do a summary email if you like, and no-one else will Feb 10 07:58
tk009 I wanted to adam Feb 10 07:58
poelcat lol Feb 10 07:58
adamw ooh ok, you go ahead then Feb 10 07:58
tk009 however I know ou have talent there Feb 10 07:58
poelcat everyone is fighting for my job :) Feb 10 07:58
tk009 lol Feb 10 07:58
adamw i thought that was you volunteering to run the meeting not write the mail Feb 10 07:58
adamw if you do both you are awesome and deserve cookies Feb 10 07:58
adamw :) Feb 10 07:58
tk009 I have time today Feb 10 07:59
tk009 and want to do it Feb 10 07:59
tk009 please Feb 10 07:59
poelcat i have a little script to format the irc log, etc. Feb 10 07:59
adamw go for it Feb 10 07:59
tk009 yes Feb 10 07:59
poelcat tk009: i'll send it to you Feb 10 07:59
tk009 yum install irc2html Feb 10 07:59
tk009 it works great Feb 10 07:59
poelcat yes, that's what I use Feb 10 07:59
poelcat thanks for a great meeting everyone Feb 10 08:00
poelcat rdieter: take it away Feb 10 08:00
poelcat see everyone at #fedora-bugzappers Feb 10 08:00
adamw thanks poelcat Feb 10 08:00
tk009 =) Feb 10 08:00
mcepl the last adominition -- go and install Feb 10 08:00
poelcat mcepl: will do Feb 10 08:00

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