From Fedora Project Wiki

Fedora Project Board Meeting :: Tuesday 2008-12-02

Upcoming Elections

  • Elections
  • The Board nominees should be appearing at 0200 UTC and 1500 UTC on Friday 2008-12-05 to take questions at #fedora-townhall and #fedora-townhall-public

Q&A Topics

  • What are the lessons learned from Fedora 10?
  • What will be the impact from the multihead feature?
  • Where does Fedora as a project need to improve the most from the community perspective?
  • What's stickster's favorite flavor of ice cream?
  • Since FUDcon11 was planned in an insensitive way with respect to college football fans, is there a planned BCS championship get-together in the works?


stickster Hi everyone 10:59
stickster poelcat: All right, do you want to get us started here? 11:00
mdomsch greetings everyone 11:01
poelcat I don't believe there is any pending board business at this time 11:01
poelcat our last meeting was the IRC meeting on 2008-11-18 11:02
poelcat and for the curious all past meetings are here: Board/Meetings 11:02
stickster One thing that may bear mentioning is the upcoming town hall meeting schedule for elections 11:02
stickster The Board nominees should be appearing at 0200 UTC and 1500 UTC on Friday 2008-12-05 to take questions at #fedora-townhall and #fedora-townhall-public 11:03
stickster Elections 11:03
mdomsch we're still looking for moderators for those 11:03
mdomsch hint hint 11:03
stickster Right, we do need one for the Board. 11:04
stickster I'm not sure whether there's a conflict in me doing it, but if all else fails, I'll be happy to 11:04
mdomsch no conflict AFAICT 11:05
stickster And election nominations are closing tomorrow. 11:05
mdomsch though I was looking for non-board members 11:05
stickster mdomsch: Right, I think it would be preferable to have someone involved from the greater community. 11:05
stickster I'll make another call for help via the planet. 11:05
stickster Anything else on this topic before we move on to Q&A then? 11:06
spoleeba mdomsch, im a lame duck so i could moderate without a conflict..but i dont think im available either time 11:06
mdomsch I'm glad to see several people running for the 2 seats 11:06
* stickster too 11:06
* gregdek stands ready to start Q&A. 11:07
mdomsch 7 people, 2 seats - all excellent candidates 11:07
mdomsch (present company excluded :-) 11:07
stickster Do we want to go to Q&A then? 11:07
* stickster looks for some +1's 11:08
mdomsch +1 11:08
stickster gregdek: OK, have at it! 11:08
gregdek nirik asks: What does the board think went right, and what lessons can we learn from f10? 11:08
f13 lessons learned, more QA (isn't that always the lesson?) 11:09
stickster What went right: Infrastructure. 11:09
mdomsch stickster, amen 11:09
f13 the current plan I have to attack that is to get more automated QA happening in reactive ways, such as reacting to a CVS checkin and test, react to a build and test, react to a tree compose and test, etc... 11:09
stickster It was almost a snooze from the perspective of making the sites ready. 11:09
mdomsch talking points were well covered in the press 11:09
f13 yes, the actual release day process was fantastic. 11:10
mdomsch stickster was all over the interview circuit 11:10
f13 the best I've ever seen 11:10
stickster f13: Always talk about the positive parts first! ;-) 11:10
f13 our handling of the blocker tracker was pretty darn good too 11:10
mdomsch artwork has received lots of kudos - from folks who usually threw stones 11:10
f13 even if it started late. 11:10
stickster We got very good support from inside Red Hat also, including making contact with the press, sending out Live USB keys to journalists, making some films (some will be emerging in the next 24 hours) 11:11
stickster f13: kudos on the blocker work, yes. 11:11
stickster f13: Wasn't this the first release where we actually cleared the blocker list more or less without really shorting anything? 11:11
f13 more or less 11:12
* stickster knows that sounds hedgy 11:12
f13 although it seems we clared one a bit too early (dmraid) 11:12
stickster oh, :-( 11:12
stickster But on the whole we didn't really have to wipe a bunch off the list by saying, "Nope, sorry, no time for that." 11:12
f13 that's a lesson learned (: 11:12
mdomsch excellent response from a lot of contributors towards the blocker list 11:13
f13 We missed some tree sanity issues too, such as conflicts in teh package set, misleading comps filename, and a few other things I think, that really should have been caught at compose time. 11:13
mdomsch I saw people jumping in to fix FTBFS, helping their fellow packagers out 11:14
f13 yea, that was good to watch 11:14
spoleeba f13, are the development freeze adjustments in the works for f11 release process going to help address some of those missed composed time checks? 11:15
f13 spoleeba: I hope so. It'll A) give us more time to find them, instead of panicing over late breaking changes, but more importantly B) we're adding tests to tree verify scripts and working out ways to get these ran automatically upon tree creation to find the issues earlier. 11:16
f13 such as each nightly rawhide run 11:16
f13 the trick is to discover the problem /before/ we try to make the final tree, rather than afterward. 11:16
mdomsch +1 for all the ambassador release parties! 11:17
notting there's always more bugs than we would like .one of the things we're trying to do more for f11 is make the freezes more frozen 11:17
f13 yeah, release party news is awesome. 11:17
ctyler mdomsch: aye, three cheers for the release parties 11:17
stickster I think we had something like 16-18 of them around the world 11:18
stickster recognized on the events calendar 11:18
stickster and probably many more that were under the radar 11:18
f13 I saw many comments that the Fedora "noise" was too great to ignore with this release, drawing some folks in to try it that wouldn't have otherwise bothered. 11:18
f13 I had my own personal release party, but only my family was invited 11:18
stickster We are getting better at making said noise in an organized, coherent fashion 11:19
f13 sadly I coudln't get the chef to make me a fedora branded steak 11:19
stickster Shall we take another question folks? 11:19
mdomsch f13, come to austin, I will 11:19
stickster gregdek: hit us! 11:20
spoleeba stickster, uhm did we talk about the negative for f10? 11:20
* gregdek waits... 11:20
stickster QA, broken trees... 11:20
mdomsch one thing to work on for next time - bitflip + mirrors opening up 11:20
f13 stickster: I did. 11:20
f13 mdomsch: I had a thought on that. 11:20
mdomsch it takes about a day for the mirrors to all catch the bitflip, so people were getting lots of "Forbidden" messages 11:21
f13 mdomsch: lets say we had a functioning ampq (qpid) message bus. 11:21
mdomsch it took several hours for us to stop sending users at closed mirrors 11:21
spoleeba where are we in getting the spin process synced with release are we on track for making progress on that in f11? 11:21
f13 mdomsch: if the mirrors were listening to that bus and caught our 'sync' request, they could have all responded and opened earlier 11:21
mdomsch f13, ok... 11:21
notting why does it take so long for them to catch it? 11:21
f13 notting: because Fedora mirroring is pull, vs push 11:21
notting spoleeba: yeah, spins were an issue. spin maintainers were absent for large portions of the process 11:21
f13 notting: some mirrors likely only sync once a day 11:21
mdomsch notting, a) they rsync every X hours (x >= 4) 11:22
notting f13: they can always do it by hand 11:22
mdomsch notting, not 150 mirrors... 11:22
mdomsch ok, 190 11:22
f13 notting: that assumes that the mirror admin was A) paying attention, B) awake at the bitflip moment 11:22
mdomsch f13, could work - need to investigate that; i haven't played with amqp myself yet 11:23
f13 spoleeba: spins are going to be treated as Features for F11, and we've identified some more things we'd like out of spin owners as part of the process. 11:23
f13 mdomsch: just not sure how willing mirror admins would be to running a daemon 11:23
mdomsch f13, some will 11:23
mdomsch we didn't think they'd be open to running report_mirror after rsync, but they are 11:23
f13 but amqp is a standard, cross platform/language protocol so it might be easier to catch a wider set of mirrors. 11:23
notting mdomsch: could we have mm verify the f10 links and only hand out verified urls? 11:24
mdomsch notting, we do, but it takes 4-6 hours to crawl them all :-( 11:24
f13 maybe a special crawl that just checks if the 11 dir is open or not? 11:24
stickster f13: notting: mdomsch: Maybe we should get back on the level of Board topics as opposed to implementation details 11:24
f13 stickster: good call. 11:25
mdomsch agreed 11:25
stickster I think we definitely have several areas identified where we need to improve process 11:25
mdomsch stickster, that was just one part of the user experience on release day that could be improved 11:25
mdomsch spoleeba asked about spins 11:26
stickster And QA is still the big elephant in the living room -- there are a number of dependencies there we're trying to resolve to make QA processes more open to community contributions 11:26
spoleeba mdomsch, f13 answered...i jsut want to make sure there's forward progress ready to roll 11:26
stickster +1 11:26
stickster OK, let's move on so we can answer some other questions 11:27
stickster gregdek: f'real this time 11:27
* stickster smacks gavel 11:27
gregdek nirik asks: Fedora has been working with OLPC, are there any moves to work with other groups that same way? 11:27
stickster Ah, that's an interesting question 11:28
mdomsch I know of some targeted user / developer groups under way 11:28
f13 I'm ever trying to bring jpackage closer to the Fedora world. 11:28
mdomsch ctyler @ seneca of course 11:28
mdomsch bill cattey @ MIT 11:28
ctyler Fedora does work with a variety of groups -- upstreams, standards bodies, edu, and so forth -- was there a specific type of group in mind here? 11:28
stickster We are continuing to pursue collaborative work with ISVs as well. 11:28
mdomsch and the secondary arch teams 11:29
spoleeba other groups? similar to OLPC? like derivative distributions or OEMs? 11:29
stickster The new "Fedora Remix" mark is a sort of outreach, in that it allows groups to leverage the Fedora brand without having to jump through a lot of hoops. 11:30
spoleeba im personally watching moblin see if there is a good entry point in a conversation there...but its not clear... the appliance tools sig/feature stuff we have cooking seems like it would be right up moblin's alley 11:30
stickster My hope is that some of those groups will be interested in reaching back into Fedora proper for more collaboration, as opposed to just taking the FR mark and runnign with it. 11:30
spoleeba stickster, any more discussions with opensuse about cross pollinating ideas... like maybe infrastructure featuresets? 11:31
stickster Smolt has been somewhat of a shim there. openSuSE folks have actually been collaborating with us somewhat on that. 11:32
spoleeba stickster, their build service is somewhat unique to them...i dont know enough about it to know if thats something we want as a service in our community 11:33
* mdomsch likes the opensuse build service 11:33
stickster The build service is very interesting. If we could find a way of having it enforce packaging standards for the various communities, that could be a win. 11:33
mdomsch it's got a lot of nice capabilties 11:33
f13 it does have some nice capabilities, some things that we could add to our build infrastructure 11:34
f13 (like KOPERs) 11:34
stickster Joe Brockmeier and I talk somewhat regularly 11:34
mdomsch dashboard of build status for X distros x Y versions x Z arches 11:34
f13 but I honestly feel that we're having a hard enough time providing resources to build our own distro, without providing resources for folks to build for other distros in our buildsystem. 11:35
stickster I would say lately we've concentrated on enabling our respective dev teams to collaborate on RPM developmen 11:35
stickster *development 11:35
spoleeba stickster, is there an opportunity to have some sort of Fedora summit specifically to put reps from different satillete groups together to talk about points of collaboration? 11:35
mdomsch spoleeba, a bunch of Novell people are in Cambridge, MA near FUDCon11 11:35
stickster spoleeba: Can you be more specific? I mean, we could do that at FUDCon potentially. 11:36
stickster Another reason we make it free for everyone to attend. 11:36
mdomsch we should be sure they're invited and have specific topics to 11:36
mdomsch collaborate on 11:36
spoleeba mdomsch, yeah..thats what im talking about.. we have a user and a developer areas...can we develop track or session specifically at external groups focused on roadmapping good collaboration cross projects 11:37
stickster I think any group in Fedora that's got a potential point of collaboration -- koji/SuSE build svc, etc. should invite groups to do this. 11:37
stickster Let's recall that the point of FUDCon is not to be driven top-down 11:38
stickster But bottom-up, as a community eevent. 11:38
stickster *event. 11:38
stickster I need a new typist. 11:38
f13 I think I"d rather see more co-development on features, rather than infrastructure 11:38
f13 features that Fedora is planning for F11/F12, if we could get other distros working on them (everything done upstream right?) that just means better features for everybody 11:38
stickster Infrastructure is an interesting case because it often develops as an expression of how a community works 11:39
stickster f13: +1 for upstream collaboration. 11:39
stickster Shall we take another Q? 11:40
spoleeba stickster, im not saying demand it.. but i dont think we've been thinking along this line for it may just be a matter of dropping the idea into the collective headspace..and watching who picks it up 11:40
stickster spoleeba: go forth and conquer my good man 11:40
spoleeba stickster, i just did 11:41
stickster Let's take another Q then. gregdek? 11:41
gregdek jimcd asks: Do we expect a major impact from the multihead feature? 11:41
stickster Ooo, this seems like a ctyler question to me :-) 11:41
ctyler Well, in many areas no, but in some places (edu in South America as one example), yes 11:42
stickster In the bigger picture, features have differing levels of impact 11:42
ctyler I think that it's a feature that a lot of people might have interest in if they caught a glimpse of the possibility 11:42
ctyler In that big picture, it's a demonstration of Fedora's flexibility 11:43
stickster right on, ctyler. 11:43
ctyler ... and the power of open source and remixing existing pieces of software. 11:43
spoleeba ctyler, this sort of think is somewhat cyclical...its like a fashion trend... multihead or multiseat..every couple of year's one or the other is out of style..multihead is the new pink 11:44
stickster I actually had two people approach me at Ohio LinuxFest specifically about multihead and what we were doing to further it in the community distro space. 11:44
stickster Two may not seem like a lot, but you have to sum that over the whole population of users/contributors. 11:44
ctyler My multiseat page is quite out of date, and gets 10K+ hits/month 11:45
f13 stickster: two sounds like a lot if we're talking about ppc users (: 11:45
stickster I think one of the things that falls out of multihead is finding chinks in our other subsystems, like places where PolicyKit isn't providing the right coverage, or SELinux, or... 11:45
spoleeba ctyler, just as long as i can get Fedora running multihead on my Nokia 810 in a year...i'll be happy 11:46
stickster So a side effect could be that you make the experience better for people who do a lot of remote system help or admin. 11:46
* notting wonders if we're conflating multihead (dual display) with multiseat (separate multiple display/input device) 11:46
stickster notting: mayhap. 11:46
* ctyler thinks multiseat was the intended question, since it's on the feature list 11:46
ctyler q++ ? 11:47
stickster ctyler: +1 11:47
stickster gregdek: take it away 11:47
gregdek Since we've got mostly fun questions... 11:47
gregdek ...I figure I'll interject one more real question. 11:47
gregdek Anonymous Coward asks: Where does Fedora as a project need to improve the most from the community perspective? 11:48
h\h grow 11:48
stickster h\h: You mean just have more people? 11:49
f13 Finding better ways to harness the community we do have, while not alienating them. 11:49
f13 or rather 11:49
* stickster notes that our account holder numbers, a fairly worthless raw statistic, has jumped from <2K to >17K in 8 months. 11:49
h\h as a whole.. more awareness 11:49
spoleeba specifically... more people..doing QA 11:49
f13 Finding better ways to harness the community that is coming to us, while not alienating the existing community. 11:49
notting growing active contributors, yes. would be interesting to see stats of FAS growth, vs. FAS growth of particular groups, to FAS growth of 'active' committers to various subprojects 11:49
spoleeba notting, how do we define active? 11:50
ctyler Continue to move people up gdk's "Community Pyramid". For example, there is a lot of chatter about people's F10 experiences in fedora-list (etc) -- we need to move people from talking about the challenges they're facing on the mailing lists to filing bugs, and participating in resolving them. 11:50
notting for example, tracking the fudcon registrees *and walkups*, and seeing whether they're in FAS three months later, if they joined more groups, etc. 11:50
spoleeba notting, i keep stumbling on that...we dont have a consistent way to measure activity across different ways to contribute 11:50
* gregdek needs to document that community pyramid. Maybe a blog. 11:51
spoleeba notting, if we could for example track a FAS login via Openid any time someone touch bugzilla or the wiki or cvs..and we could track that as activity..we'd have something to measure 11:51
stickster ctyler: Speaking of which, there's been a fairly decent uptick on fedora-test-list, for better or worse -- some of it happened in the couple of weeks before F10 GA. If we could move that horizon back a few months, we'd really have something special going. ;-) 11:51
ctyler excellent! 11:52
gregdek stickster: How much of that was atttibutable to OLPC testing, d'you think? 11:52
stickster gregdek: I'd be hard pressed to say. 11:53
gregdek ok. 11:53
stickster I think OLPC was a substantial minority. 11:53
stickster spoleeba: I think we could track those things. 11:53
spoleeba stickster, i would love it.... something we can define as activity 11:54
stickster The BZ email == FAS email and is tied to SCM through the FAS login name. 11:54
spoleeba stickster, so I can really start to hammer on the question of how sticky our communiity is for new FAS account holders 11:54
stickster We may miss things done through outside accounts, but that doesn't invalidate the whole idea. 11:54
spoleeba stickster, if i could watch FAS login logs..and do some analysis..i can give you some trending on what 'activity' looks like across the entire fas account space 11:55
stickster I would like to see Fedora do a better job overall of hooking people up with meaningful, small tasks, and provide them the support they need to do those tasks. 11:56
spoleeba stickster, that statement goes right into the stuff ive been talking to luke about 11:56
f13 I think we've had this discussion before, about tracking user activity, and that got mired into privacy issues 11:57
ctyler The challenge, of course, is that support to do a small task can be equal to or greater than doing the task itself -- but pays of better in the long run. 11:57
stickster We need to get more of the Fedora principals in Red Hat into a situation like Mike McGrath is building with Infrastructure 11:57
spoleeba stickster, and what ive been blogging about 11:57
stickster ctyler: Exactly. 11:57
stickster If I look at my job as making widgets, I will never succeed at building that part of the community. 11:57
stickster It has to be about providing easy ways for other people to collaborate in widget-building 11:58
stickster And the support structures they need to do so 11:58
* stickster shuts up now 11:58
stickster gregdek: Another question? 11:59
stickster A serious one? :-) 11:59
gregdek mmcgrath asks: what's stickster's favorite flavor of ice cream? 11:59
stickster Oh lord 11:59
gregdek I don't think we have any more serious questions queued up. Sorry. 11:59
ctyler perfect timing! 12:00
stickster either Chunky Monkey, or I'm feeling more virtuous, Breyer's strawberry fro-yo (discontinued, sadly) 12:00
stickster s/or/or if/ 12:00
gregdek inode0 asks: Since FUDcon11 was planned in an insensitive way with respect to college football fans, is there a planned BCS championship get-together in the works? 12:00
f13 stickster: not Crow? 12:00
mdomsch chubby hubby 12:00
gregdek mdomsch: No one asked you.  ;) 12:00
spoleeba my favorite is moose 12:01
stickster f13: I never eat crow, I always just claim later the good ideas were mine. 12:01
gregdek stickster learned that from me. 12:01
stickster And I thank you every day for it. 12:01
gregdek ;) 12:01
stickster gregdek: Thanks! 12:01
notting gregdek: oh geez. what's the overlap there? 12:01
gregdek National Championship game is the 10th, I expect. 12:01
stickster Two words for college football fans: Sports. Bars. 12:02
stickster :-D 12:02
notting gregdek: thursday night. pre-fudcon. 12:02
stickster heh 12:02
gregdek Oh, really? 12:02
gregdek NO PLAYOFF, NO PEACE. 12:02
stickster I can see we're in danger of seriously running off the rails now :-) 12:03
stickster Motion to adjourn? 12:03
ctyler +1 12:03
f13 +1 12:03
mdomsch +1 12:03
notting +1 12:03
* stickster bangs gavel 12:04
stickster And a post-meeting note to Board and community members alike -- thank you all for a brilliant Fedora 10 and the work you put into it. 12:04
stickster This is truly an outstanding release! 12:05
* stickster packs up gavel and goes back to work 12:06


stickster Welcome to the Board public meeting everyone. 11:00
f13 inode0: what the smell? Did gregdek join #rhel recently? 11:01
stickster We may have one agenda item to cover first, followed by your Q&A. 11:01
nirik ok, since no one else is asking: What does the board think went right, and what lessons can we learn from f10? 11:01
jjmcd goos q, nirik 11:01
jjmcd s/goos/good 11:01
jjmcd better quit trying to type 11:01
Cancel nirik bring back the old pretty guified boot 11:01
mmcgrath wee 11:02
Cancel that little bar on the bottom heck what do the white, blue, and light blue even mean? 11:02
jjmcd Cancel: you dont like the solar flares? 11:02
Cancel oooh that's what those are? 11:02
f13 jjmcd: Cancel probably can't see the flares, due to his video card not supporting kernel mode setting 11:02
f13 jjmcd: only a small set of video cards support it 11:02
nirik only some ati cards currently. 11:03
jjmcd ahhhh ... I got an old ATI so I figgered everyone else was worse off than me! 11:03
Cancel a boot screen with information would be nice, and by default 11:03
nirik Cancel: you can remove the 'quiet rhgb' from your kernel line and get all the spew back if you want it. 11:03
Cancel I said by default ;) 11:04
nirik most people really don't want a spew of text. 11:04
Cancel the making it quiet is what should take my editing, just my two cents 11:04
Cancel nirik: what would be your answer to the question you posed? 11:05
jjmcd But if you had the grody text you couldn't see the comet plummeting into the sun by default 11:05
nirik Cancel: wait and watch the #fedora-board-meeting channel for the boards answer 11:05
f13 the text is geek porn, and geeks can enable it if they want. 11:07
gregdek Any other questions, feel free to queue them up. 11:07
Cancel well it was always there before without having to do anything specifically to enable it was my point 11:08
gregdek This will be a short meeting if you guys don't come up with some awesome, hard hitting questions. 11:10
Cancel overall though I'm as happy as I'm going to be 11:10
gregdek This is your opportunity to shame and embarrass the board publicly. Don't miss out! 11:10
nirik how about: Fedora has been working with OLPC, are there any moves to work with other groups that same way? 11:11
f13 Cancel: right, we're improving upon the past, where the text was noisy, ugly to many people, and really served no purpose to a vast majority of our users. 11:11
Cancel if you say so ;) 11:12
inode0 and this way most people miss the 10 second delay notice ... 11:12
jjmcd Do we expect a major impact from the multihead feature? 11:17
inode0 mdomsch: F10 runs very nice on the mini9 btw 11:19
mmcgrath mdomsch: on that. Should we flip the bit earlier or are we thinking about doing a push like debian? 11:21
mdomsch mmcgrath, I'm open to ideas 11:23
mmcgrath mdomsch: I think it'd be worth examining debians setup. If it works and is proven. I see no reason not to do it. Many of our mirrors may already have the setup ready, just need a key or something from us. 11:24
* nirik didn't have anything specific in mind, just wanted to know if we were reaching out to other groups like that and if there were any notable ones on the horizon. 11:30
mmcgrath stickster: yes they have. 11:32
mmcgrath spoleeba: I think that service is unique to them. We have a hard enough time getting our epel builds in koji (going on over a year now) much less getting support for debs and things. 11:34
mmcgrath all to just duplicate service? I'd say thats an area we could go to them and say "how could we help with this" instead of ask ourselves "how can we duplicate it" 11:34
f13 I agree with mmcgrath 11:37
f13 it'd be interesting to know if we can do anything to make it easier for them to handle Fedora builds, I see that as useful work. 11:37
f13 duplicating what they have isn't so useful. 11:37
mmcgrath f13: I'm talking to some of those guys now, it sounds like for EVERYTHING they build, opensuse and all the other stuff. The total storage comes to less then 2T. 11:38
f13 they obviously purge aggressively? 11:39
mmcgrath I don't know. 11:40
mmcgrath They did mention they save a lot of space with.. 11:40
mmcgrath "the source is stored in a kind of version mgmt system which saves us a bit space" 11:40
mmcgrath I'm not sure the details of that. 11:40
gregdek No more questions in the queue. If you have one, hit me. 11:41
mmcgrath gregdek: what's stickster's favorite flavor of ice cream? 11:42
jjmcd I was thinking more the other way, difficulty in implementatiopn 11:43
jjmcd I see hints of knotty problems, but not enough knowledge to know whether they are real 11:44
inode0 Since FUDcon11 was planned in an insensitive way with respect to college football fans, is there a planned BCS championship get-together in the works? 11:44
rdieter lol 11:44
gregdek inode0: What do you care? Did Iowa State make the Rose Bowl, and I missed it somehow? 11:45
inode0 I don't care about them :) 11:45
gregdek LOL 11:45
f13 inode0: well, it is Boston, and there are such things as sports bars. I find it rather difficult to fathom that there wouldn't be bars playing the game 11:45
jjmcd yes, or dbus or gconf 11:45
mmcgrath f13: FYI, looks like for the public builds OBS only keeps the most recent version of a build. 11:46
gregdek f13: It's Cambridge, you insensitive clod. 11:46
gregdek These people don't know their heads from their seats! 11:47
f13 ok, fine, it's 5 minutes away from Boston 11:47
inode0 and since I don't think umass made it either maybe they won't bother :) 11:47
jjmcd easy one gregdek: dox 11:48
gregdek w00t 12:05
stickster gregdek: Thank you sir 12:07

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