Meeting:Docs IRC log 20090723

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Sparks #startmeeting Docs Project - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Thursday_July_23.2C_2009_.28Wed_US_Time.29 00:01
Sparks Who is here? 00:01
* Sparks 00:01
* jjmcd is onna fone 00:01
perspectival I'm here 00:02
* bcotton is here for a change 00:02
* laubersm 00:02
* rudi is here 00:02
* Sparks gives everyone a few more minutes to get here. 00:04
* danielsmw is here 00:04
* stickster 00:05
Sparks Okay, let's get started. 00:06
Sparks #topic Status on CMS (Zikula) <-- ke4qqq 00:06
Sparks So we had a Zikula planning meeting this morning... 00:06
Sparks and discovered that our deployment schedule is slipping because of problems we are having... 00:07
Sparks getting some of the modules packaged. 00:07
* stickster notes current status is at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula#Module_status 00:08
Sparks One of the bigger problems is that these modules have snippets of code or skins or icons that are... 00:08
Sparks licensed under other-than-GPL licenses. 00:08
Sparks Thanks stickster. 00:08
Sparks The link that stickster posted is the current status of all the modules. 00:08
Sparks I plan on working on a couple of items tonight. 00:09
Sparks We also need to identify if there are other modules that are needed to stand up Zikula for the other projects. 00:09
* stickster did some work this afternoon, will try to resolve his other action item if time allows tonight 00:09
Sparks Does anyone have any questions? 00:09
stickster What is the action item for identifying those modules? 00:09
stickster Who is doing it? 00:09
Sparks We don't have that. 00:10
stickster I think if we can identify the actionable task, it's easier for someone to put up their hand and say, "I'd like to help." 00:10
Sparks agrees 00:10
stickster So I ask you, what is needed to do that identification? 00:11
stickster (anyone can answer, really) 00:11
* stickster puts question out on table for consideration 00:11
Sparks I'm not sure. Maybe nothing. 00:11
stickster Um 00:11
stickster Who are the people involved outside Docs? 00:11
* stickster looks at list and sees Fedora Insight and Fedora Weekly News 00:12
Sparks mchua was working on the Marketing people for their foobar project 00:12
stickster That's Marketing team, and News team, right? 00:12
Sparks yes 00:12
stickster So how can we put them in a position to identify modules? 00:12
Sparks Point them to the website? 00:12
stickster Well, maybe there's something we could do that's less... I don't know, flailing 00:13
Sparks Actually we probably need to sit down with them and help identify things they want to do. 00:13
stickster Aha! 00:13
stickster awesome 00:13
stickster So that's a list that really *anyone* could make 00:13
Sparks Yes 00:13
Sparks If a project needs a calendar or something then we need to make sure that can happen. 00:14
Sparks Would anyone like to step up and help Marketing and News make these decisions? 00:15
* ianweller rolls in 00:16
stickster perspectival: You're new here, what would *you* like to do? 00:16
perspectival grin; I'm madly busy preparing some statements right now 00:16
perspectival thanks for the offer but pass for the moment 00:16
stickster OK, moving on then. 00:17
* mchua pokes head in as well 00:17
stickster Hi mchua! 00:17
stickster We were just saying, we probably need to have someone in Docs working with each of the teams looking to leverage Zikula 00:17
stickster Because we'll want to compile a list of needs you have, elementary ways of displaying content 00:18
stickster like "we need a calendar" 00:18
stickster or "we need a daily-rotating headline" 00:18
mchua for the record, I've got it on my plate before next tuesday to nail down specs for Fedora Insight's zikula stuff from the Marketing side... and I have stickster and ianweller as the Marketing <--> Docs interfaces... anything else we need? 00:18
stickster or something like that. 00:18
mchua a pony? 00:18
stickster Ah, I guess that's me for your team then 00:18
stickster and ianweller 00:18
stickster So who's left? News? 00:19
Sparks Yeah 00:19
stickster OK, that seems like the not-covered bit 00:19
Sparks stickster: I haven't met with anyone from that group. 00:19
stickster I know JonRob is working with them a bit, might be good for someone here to round up with him and maybe Pascal Calarco, who I think said he'd be willing to meet with someone to discuss their needs 00:20
* stickster is trying to make sure that someone in that group knows something about Zikula, or at least knows someone who does 00:20
stickster Sparks: Why don't you take this one then 00:21
Sparks #action Sparks to follow up with the News people about Zikula 00:21
Sparks Okay, anything else on the Zikula subject? 00:21
stickster or maybe "to met with News people and solicit a list of their needs" 00:21
stickster s/met/meet/ 00:21
Sparks Yeah, that too 00:21
* stickster thinks the more explanatory and concise the actions are, the easier it is to track them at the next meeting 00:22
Sparks #action Sparks to meet with News people and solicit a list of their needs 00:22
Sparks Okay, moving on. 00:22
* stickster stands down since munchkin bedtime is coming up 00:22
Sparks #topic Status on CC license rollout. <-- ianweller 00:23
* ke4qqq is here 00:23
ke4qqq sorry for being late 00:23
Sparks ianweller: Where are we on announcing to the world that we are changing licenses? 00:23
Sparks ianweller: Hello? 00:25
* stickster wonders if ianweller is still stuck on RH's guest net 00:25
ianweller Sparks: oh sorry :( 00:25
ianweller stickster: no i'm at the hotel 00:25
ianweller Sparks: we should be announcing to the world via a quasi-press release to CC and to fedora-announce-list i guess 00:26
ianweller i believe 00:26
* ianweller apologizes again for wasting meeting time 00:26
Sparks ianweller: When is this going to happen? 00:26
ianweller Sparks: when do you want it to happen 00:26
ianweller we just need to write something up and push it 00:27
ianweller and by "we" i mean "not me tomorrow or friday" 00:27
Sparks ianweller: Are we waiting on something to happen? Do we announce and then go through the process of changing stuff? 00:27
ianweller you can go either way, the way you said or the reverse 00:27
ianweller i would recommend the way you said 00:27
ianweller announce that we're committing license changes, hten actuallydo work 00:27
ianweller oh god i can't type 00:27
stickster Actually, it really should be the other way around IMHO 00:28
stickster You announce what you've done (or maybe even are in the process of doing) 00:28
stickster Otherwise it's too easy to announce, find a blocker, and then people wonder why you didn't do what you said you'd do. 00:28
ianweller hmm 00:28
Sparks ianweller: can you get something written this weekend? 00:28
stickster ianweller: What specifically is the action to change? 00:28
ianweller Sparks: that's funny, i'll try ;) 00:29
stickster i.e. text in the wiki? 00:29
Sparks ianweller: I'm assuming that the wiki would be easy. 00:29
* ianweller adds it to his todo 00:29
ianweller yes wiki 00:29
stickster What else? 00:29
Sparks Guides 00:29
bcotton otoh, if we want to give people a chance to object, we should announce it a bit ahead of time. i guess we're assuming that anyone who might care is on fedora-docs or fedora-legal? 00:29
Sparks Which means a change to the Fedora brand in Publian 00:29
ianweller i really don't know what all docs does that is being changed quite frankly. 00:29
stickster bcotton: We've already done that. 00:29
Sparks s/Publian/Publican 00:29
ianweller bcotton: we've done thta for about a month i htink 00:29
ianweller think* 00:29
rudi Sparks -- easy 00:29
ianweller oh 00:29
ianweller dear 00:29
ianweller god 00:29
ianweller give me typing lessons again 00:29
Sparks rudi: yeah, but then rebuilding all the guides... 00:30
ianweller Sparks: how about this 00:30
ianweller Sparks: can you guys create a rollout plan? 00:30
ianweller and then i can definitely write an announcement 00:30
rudi Do we have to do that immediately, or just as we republish them? 00:30
Sparks #action Sparks to write rollout plan for license change 00:30
Sparks rudi: don't know 00:30
ianweller #action ianweller to write press release 00:30
onekopaka_laptop ianweller: writing press release?! 00:31
ianweller onekopaka_laptop: i'd recommend some scrollback 00:31
ianweller is there anything else? 00:31
Sparks rudi: Can you help me with the Fedora-brand stuff? 00:32
ianweller i'd really just like to see an order in how everything has to be changed before we start doing it 00:32
rudi Sparks -- love to. 00:32
ianweller so we can check things off as we go. 00:32
Sparks ianweller: I don't think so. Where are we going to push the release? 00:32
jjmcd Sparks, I'll be happy to provide you with a sounding board as you develop that 00:32
ianweller Sparks: fedora-announce-list and mlinksva at CC 00:32
ianweller can you think of anything else 00:32
ianweller are there any documentation thinktanks or the like around the internet 00:33
Sparks #action rudi to help sparks on changing the fedora-brand in Publican for CC license 00:33
Sparks ianweller: how about a RH Press Release? 00:33
ianweller oh hey 00:33
ianweller i can pull that off 00:33
ianweller and/or i can make quaid do it 00:33
Sparks jjmcd: Cool 00:33
Sparks ianweller: You can MAKE quaid do that? Wow, impressive 00:33
* stickster has to run 00:34
ianweller well i can suggest it to him 00:34
ianweller and to some people with more clout than me 00:34
Sparks  :) 00:34
ianweller like spevack 00:34
* Sparks doesn't know many people with more clout than ianweller 00:34
ianweller i am the wiki czar. 00:34
ianweller ok i think we're done on this subject, we've got good action items. 00:34
* Sparks hears thunder whenever ianweller says that 00:34
ianweller lol 00:34
Sparks Cool... Anyone else? 00:34
Sparks #topic Shared open-source style guide <--ke4qqq 00:35
Sparks #link https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-June/msg00163.html 00:35
Sparks ke4qqq: Any development on this? 00:35
onekopaka_laptop someone should follow ianweller around with a recording of thunder and play it whenever he says "I am the wiki czar" 00:35
ke4qqq Sparks: sadly no - real life has gotten in the way of GTD 00:36
ke4qqq I'll try and fix that by tonight though 00:36
Sparks ke4qqq: understood. 00:36
jjmcd that RL stuff can be a real pain 00:36
Sparks tell me about it 00:37
Sparks Okay, we'll follow up next week. 00:37
Sparks #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets 00:37
Sparks #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&classification=Fedora&product=Fedora%20Documentation&bug_status=NEW 00:37
Sparks There are sixteen NEW tickets that have not been assigned. 00:37
Sparks danielsmw: Can we move the software-management-guide into the user guide? 00:38
ke4qqq there are some we just should close won'tfit 00:38
ke4qqq wontfix 00:38
Sparks ke4qqq: I agree but I think we should make sure that we make an effort to address all of them or at least make sure they've been fixed. 00:39
danielsmw Sparks: yes, we can 00:39
Sparks danielsmw: Okay, I'll push those tickets (maybe one or two) to you, then. 00:39
danielsmw k 00:39
Sparks danielsmw: Actually, one...  :) 00:40
Sparks There are 69 total bugs that are either NEW or ASSIGNED. If you haven't looked at your ticket queue lately please do so and make sure you are working on these problems. 00:42
Sparks Anything else? 00:42
ke4qqq Sparks: lets spend some time post meeting working on doing something with NEW stuff 00:42
Sparks ke4qqq: Cool 00:42
Sparks Okay, moving on. 00:43
Sparks #topic Guide needs? 00:43
Sparks Anyone have guides that need some help? 00:43
Sparks Anyone want to help out with a guide? 00:43
ke4qqq I'd like to demote myself on the IG 00:43
Sparks ke4qqq: Denied 00:44
Sparks next? 00:44
Sparks #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Guides 00:44
Sparks The above link shows all our current guides and their status. Please keep this up-to-date. 00:44
Sparks ke4qqq: Do you need help or is RL catching up with you? 00:45
ke4qqq well a combination of things - I don't want to be a constraint - rudi is already doing the bulk of the work, and is effectively leading the guide 00:45
Sparks rudi: thoughts? 00:46
ke4qqq I still want to work on it, but figure those doing the bulk of the work should make the decisions, and that's def. rudi in this case 00:46
rudi Well ke4qqq has never been a constraint! 00:46
Sparks Well, I'll let you two work that out. 00:47
Sparks I don't think ke4qqq has ever been confused with a speed bump 00:47
Sparks Anything else? 00:47
Sparks #topic New Guides 00:48
rudi Installation Quick Start Guide 00:48
Sparks Anyone have a new guide or a new idea they'd like to discuss for a guide? 00:48
Sparks rudi: go! 00:48
rudi There was some discussion about this in the lead-up to F11, and a lot more on f-d-l lately 00:48
rudi I've now built the book 00:49
rudi and have drafts available for review: 00:49
rudi html is here: http://rlandmann.fedorapeople.org/IQSG/en-US/html-single/ 00:49
rudi pdf is here: http://rlandmann.fedorapeople.org/IQSG/en-US/pdf/Installation_Quick_Start_Guide.pdf 00:49
rudi I mentioned this on the list, but got zero feedback so far. 00:49
rudi I'd like people to take a look and offer comments, in particular on the scope of the thing 00:50
rudi Too much? Too little? Wrong focus? 00:50
ke4qqq how do u want to receive comments? 00:50
Sparks rudi: Maybe we can put it on the announce list to get others involved? Maybe some of the IRC support people? 00:50
rudi Just keep in mind the constraint that I'm trying to maintain as much commonality with the text of the IG and other existing docs as possible, to ease the load on L10N in maintaining two separate but overlapping books 00:51
rudi ke4qqq -- f-d-l is probably best 00:51
Sparks rudi: Do you want a BZ component for this guide? 00:51
rudi Sparks -- yes please 00:51
Sparks #action Sparks to create BZ component for Installation Quick Start Guide 00:52
rudi For the moment, I've directed the BZ to the install-guide component, but a separate component will ease confusion 00:52
rudi Trac is here, for anyone who wants to join in : https://fedorahosted.org/installation-quick-start-guide/ 00:53
Sparks excellent 00:53
Sparks rudi: I'll take a look at it soon. 00:53
Sparks rudi: Anything else? 00:53
rudi Nope -- that's it from me :) 00:53
Sparks rudi: Thank you 00:54
Tsagadai Sparks, the Virt Guide is still coming. I am just swamped 00:54
Sparks Tsagadai: Excellent. 00:54
Tsagadai I should have xml up by next week, hopefully 00:54
Sparks Tsagadai: Is in Trac? 00:54
Tsagadai Trac and git are set up 00:54
Sparks +1 00:54
Sparks Tsagadai: Do you want a BZ component for the Virt Guide? 00:55
Tsagadai could you make me a BZ component, hopefully Virtualization_Guide 00:55
Sparks #action Sparks to create a BZ component for Virtualization Guide 00:55
Sparks Tsagadai: Anything else? 00:55
perspectival from Tsagadai or anyone? 00:55
* Sparks needs to get his keys on this laptop so he can do all this work! 00:56
Sparks perspectival: From Tsagadai at the moment. 00:56
Tsagadai that's it for me for now. I will have lots of xml coming in soon 00:56
Sparks Tsagadai: Thank you 00:56
Sparks perspectival: You have something for us? 00:56
perspectival sure! 00:56
perspectival I mentioned the Deployment Guide a few weeks ago, and the goood news is that I've nearly got it all set up (and the unfortunate news is, of course, is that it's going to take another hour or so) 00:56
perspectival in view of these circumstances, I think what I'll do is announce the Deployment Guide on fedora-docs-list as early as tomorrow (it's rather late here) 00:56
perspectival let me do a quick intro as to what the Deployment Guide is about 00:57
perspectival I plan for the Fedora Deployment Guide to cover system administration tasks such as user administration, package management, and setting up network interfaces and various servers and services such as Apache, LDAP, OpenSSH, Samba, etc. 00:57
* Sparks thinks it sounds kin to the Desktop User Guide 00:58
Sparks but maybe for more of an enterprise crowd 00:58
perspectival I see (as of a few minutes ago) that I'll need to add this book to Docs_Project_meetings#Guides 00:58
rudi I think it's very different from the UG 00:58
* nirik has a short thing if there is an open floor at the end. ;) 00:58
rudi For the reason that Sparks just noted :) 00:58
Sparks nirik: There will be 00:58
Sparks perspectival: Yes, please add your guide there. 00:59
jjmcd The question is, can it be structured so that translations can be borrowed from the UG, IG, etc? 00:59
perspectival I think that's probably a good description (more geared towards the enterprise crowd) 00:59
rudi jjmcd -- translations can be borrowed from the RHEL deployment guide 00:59
perspectival that's correct 00:59
jjmcd ahhhh better yet 00:59
rudi already translated into 22 languages 00:59
* Sparks tries to remember the talk on Fedora for the Enterprise that someone did at the Raleigh FUDCON 00:59
ke4qqq huh?? FDG is already in 22 langs? 00:59
rudi no -- RHEL DG 01:00
ke4qqq ahhh ok 01:00
rudi  ;D 01:00
jjmcd this is goodness that we are thinking about these things 01:00
perspectival any questions from me at the moment? I'll provide a lot more info in an email tomorrow (including the current draft, how to get it and where to look at it, etc.) 01:01
Sparks Cool 01:01
Sparks perspectival: Excellent. 01:01
rudi perspectival -- I guess this overlaps with the RPM guide to some extent 01:01
perspectival rudi: that's true, though I haven't had the chance to compare the respective info yet 01:02
Sparks perspectival: Yeah, get with bcotton and see if the two guides are similar 01:02
perspectival will put that on the GTDToDo list 01:02
perspectival ok! 01:02
rudi I think there was some talk about revamping that; the revamp may be a duplication of effort... 01:02
perspectival will do 01:02
Sparks Anyone else have a new guide they'd like to discuss? 01:03
Sparks Okay, moving on 01:04
Sparks #topic All other business 01:04
Sparks nirik: You have something for us? 01:04
nirik Yeah, we are looking for teachers for classes and more students for Fedora IRC CLassroom. 01:04
nirik https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom 01:04
nirik please consider teaching on docs topics sometime. ;) 01:04
Sparks nirik: Anything specific? 01:05
nirik nope... anything you desire. ;) 01:05
nirik and we are using a model now where you can just schedule your class when you can teach... 01:05
* jjmcd will consider a class for new beat writers 01:05
nirik and we might do a weekend of classes near release time. 01:05
Sparks jjmcd: Very good idea. 01:06
nirik just schedule 2 weeks in advance so we can advertise it. 01:06
ke4qqq  ? 01:06
Sparks ke4qqq: Yes? 01:06
* ke4qqq will wait til nirik is done 01:06
nirik thats all I had, just letting folks know. 01:06
nirik Please see me or the classroom list if you have questions... 01:07
ke4qqq rudi: any movement on the RH style guide?? 01:07
rudi Sorry ke4qqq -- I've been bogged down and haven't pursued this yet 01:07
ke4qqq no worries, same story here 01:07
rudi I'll make sure I follow it up today 01:07
Sparks Oh, I have something (should have been in the guides discussion) 01:07
* rudi has something else too (when Sparks is done) 01:08
Sparks We had an open ticket from a few years ago... 01:08
Sparks asking for more formats of our guides. 01:08
* danielsmw has to split; peace. 01:09
Sparks So is it a problem to create html, html-single, and pdf for all our guides and put them on docs.fp.o? 01:09
Sparks danielsmw: See ya! 01:09
jjmcd AFAIK, pdf doesn't work again 01:09
ke4qqq just a bit more work and clutter IMO 01:09
Sparks jjmcd: There's a rouge patch out there. 01:09
jjmcd ah 01:09
rudi jjmcd -- it's on my Fedorapeople page 01:10
ke4qqq we really should solve the clutter problem before adding more content - the 30 some odd languages in one format is enough. 01:10
jjmcd ke4qqq, I thought mo was going to sort that for us 01:10
jjmcd 41 for RNs 01:10
rudi jjmcd -- rogue patch: http://rlandmann.fedorapeople.org/xslthl-2.0.0-1.fc11.noarch.rpm 01:10
Sparks ke4qqq: http://docs.fedoraproject.org/selinux-user-guide/ 01:10
Sparks ^^^ not so cluttered. 01:10
ke4qqq jjmcd: didn't we tell her to hold off pending zikula 01:10
Sparks Yes, when Zikula comes in all this might be different 01:11
ke4qqq that's not bad 01:11
jjmcd maybe you're right, as soon as we handed it to her it went off my radar 01:11
Sparks ke4qqq: Yeah, it's a lot clearer. I built that as a "try". Could be fixed up even more. 01:11
* rudi notes that the licence change may provide a good opportunity to publish extra formats... 01:11
Sparks ke4qqq: We always get requests for whatever isn't there. 01:11
ke4qqq +1 01:12
jjmcd But only 3 languages, and no "iso" 01:12
Sparks no iso? 01:12
ke4qqq language codes 01:12
Sparks I put the language codes in there. 01:12
jjmcd For RN's we have "as released" as well as most current. As release is "iso", I presume because it was on the live cd 01:13
ke4qqq Sparks: ignore me, I missed the parens 01:13
Sparks Okay... Now if I could translate "single" into all the different languages I'd truely be happy 01:13
Sparks rudi: You had something else? 01:14
rudi Yeah; I've checked in Publicanized versions of the "minor" docs packaged with the RN; these are now in translation. 01:14
rudi I didn't do the "homepage" doc because I didn't know what its future is, and don't want to waste translators' time. 01:15
jjmcd I noticed. Thank you! 01:15
* rudi notes that the module is showing up as "deprecated" in Transifex 01:15
rudi Is it time to pull the plug finally on this one? 01:15
rudi jjmcd -- NP 01:15
jjmcd I think we need to get with the maintainers of the "minor" browsers that use it 01:15
Sparks maybe 01:15
jjmcd We got more browsers ... 01:16
rudi Also; I think we need to come to a decision about whether all these need to be packaged with the RNs themselves; but I guess that's one for the RN packaging meeting -- do we have a firm time for that? 01:17
Sparks rudi: 1500z today. 01:17
Sparks rudi: Not sure if that's too late/early for you 01:17
rudi Great -- that's 1AM for me, but I'll be there. I just didn't want to stay up for it unless I was sure that it was going ahead! 01:18
Sparks jjmcd: You gonna be there? 01:18
jjmcd yep 01:18
Sparks I'll be there... So that's three of us! 01:18
rudi lolz 01:18
Sparks #action Sparks to send out reminder about the RN meeting 01:19
Sparks Okay, anything else? 01:19
rudi Not from me 01:19
Sparks Anyone? 01:19
Sparks Okay, thanks for everyone coming tonight. 01:20
Sparks #endmeeting 01:20