SIGs/Education/Meetings/2008-04-25

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sdziallas hi all!
sdziallas so, who is here for the education sig meeting?
* rdieter here
sdziallas warren, gregdek ping
sdziallas anybody else?
sdziallas okay not very effective, but here we go
sdziallas maybe we should talk about the education spin and collaboration with K12LTSP?!
sdziallas i have uploaded a possible kickstart file for a spin to the wiki
rdieter http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education/Spin ?
sdziallas yes!
sdziallas i tried to get some of the most important educational apps in
sdziallas but basically, it's just kdeedu, blender and scribus
rdieter What qualifies as an "educational" app?
WhiteNitro Hello - Bryant Patten here for education sig meeting - sorry about being tardy - phone meeting overrun
sdziallas Hi
sdziallas rdieter: well, i went through the repos and created a first draft list (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education/Apps)
rdieter ah, thx.
sdziallas whitenitro: we were just talking about the spin and educational apps (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education/Spin)
rdieter seems very open-ended and overly broad perhaps, hard to quantify what's best to include or not.
rdieter esp if you're limiting yourself to a livecd (or not?)
sdziallas yeah... that's true...
rdieter For example, perhaps something to consider omitting would be games (otoh, there do exist educational games).
sdziallas +1
sdziallas i think we cannot put everything on a livecd
sdziallas IMHO, such a cd might be used for an quick overview of edu-apps and might e.g. be handled out by a teacher to his students
sdziallas but we cannot include everything
rdieter maybe try to focus on 1, 2, or 3 main areas, and make sure to do them well. For example, math/science.
rdieter at least as a first try.
WhiteNitro Is it a given that OpenOffice suite is included - in case teachers wanted to send home assignments in ODF?
rdieter WhiteNitro: ooo is too big.
sdziallas sounds like a beginning
WhiteNitro Abiword?
sdziallas i had abiword in it
rdieter abiword or kword would be better.
sdziallas but for f9, my first tries using gnome (and abiword) become way too big
sdziallas now there are kword, kspread, and kpresenter in it
sdziallas it's just my problem, that an default gnome desktop (without all the software - just the basics and gnome) ist still about 550 MB
sdziallas and then, I'm not able to include kdeedu anymore
rdieter yeah, basic os/desktop, be it gnome or kde, takes a majority of the space on a livecd, not much room for additional apps.
WhiteNitro Is a live DVD a possibility (advance apologies is that is a newbie question)?
rdieter WhiteNitro: no, I was about to suggest considering just that.
sdziallas well, I'd normally recommend a dvd... we had a discussion on FDL on this some time ago
rdieter there's a hard trade off here: the ease/simplicity of using cd-sized, vs. the flexibility of the additional space using >700MB image.
WhiteNitro Because the ability for a teacher to hand out a disk at the beginning of the year that contains all the apps for the year would be great.
sdziallas that makes some sense
WhiteNitro One that doesn't required installing on the home machine would be a complete homerun.
rdieter WhiteNitro: I think for that to be possible, serious thought has to be put into narrowing the spin's focus, it can't be everything for everybody.
WhiteNitro Or perhaps some kind of image for a 2GB or 4GB flash drive - bootable or portable apps sort of thing
WhiteNitro I was thinking a focus on K-12 education
WhiteNitro maybe a set of apps for K-6, and 7-12
WhiteNitro But I hadn't thought through domain specific spins (math, science, etc)
sdziallas well... my first idea were age-specific spins, too
rdieter right, focus on 1 or 2 domains initially, would be my suggestion.
sdziallas but domain specific makes also sense, too
sdziallas but there is a major problem:
sdziallas as you may have noticed, we had some havy discussions on spins on FAB and FDL
sdziallas and there is now a spin sig
sdziallas bit i really don't know, how many spins we could provide using the fedora infrastructure
rdieter that's a good question, but a separate issue, imo.
rdieter without narrower focus, the edu spin as-is would likely be of limitted interest to anyone.
WhiteNitro A parallel problem is that if you force teachers or tech people to decide which of dozens of spins they need, you will lose them as well
WhiteNitro "For this lesson plan, you need the software on Spin 17A ...."
rdieter WhiteNitro: yes and no, edu-sig needs to reach out to folks not currently satisified, to find out what they want/need, and help them get what they want.
WhiteNitro True
sdziallas so we need to make some advertisement and ask the people for their opinions?!
WhiteNitro But sometimes too many choices can be overwhelming, no?
rdieter well, right now, there is no choice. The spin doesn't exist yet. :)
rdieter sdziallas: eventually, yes.
sdziallas yet! ;)
WhiteNitro I did just get a request for a K-7 Arts Open Source CD (tuxpaint, Pencil, etc)
WhiteNitro  :) touche - we will cross that bridge later
rdieter I guess what I'm getting at is... I propose the edu-sig start small, make a small, narrowly focussed spin, make sure it appeals to at least some edu demographic.
rdieter obviously, this won't be everything to everyone, but hopefully, be enough to garner more input, so that other edu-spins could benefit.
WhiteNitro Makes sense. What is your suggestion for the focus?
rdieter *shrug*, I threw out Math/Science earlier, but it really could be anything. Any opinions on what would be most in demand, what's might be most popular?
sdziallas well... depends... math & science seems to be most useful... maybe chemistry?
rdieter I'm biased, I work at a University, Math dept, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
WhiteNitro Would these spins have content or just apps?
rdieter WhiteNitro: apps (mainly).
sdziallas I mean, later... we could think about something like a portal with educational content and descriptions for the apps
WhiteNitro [bias confession ] I am strictly in the K-12 world  :)
* sdziallas goes again through the list of apps
sdziallas so tools like audacity or jokosher might be at first way too specific
WhiteNitro It is a fairly broad list in age and domain (tuxtype to blender)
sdziallas true... definitely
sdziallas i should work on this
WhiteNitro I need to re-read the use-case for this spin. Is is something that teachers hand out? That students use for the their own exploration? Home schoolers?
rdieter WhiteNitro: I don't think there is a use-case yet, that's part of what's needed, imo. (unless I'm missing something).
sdziallas depends... i think rdieter is right
sdziallas we need a goal for this one
WhiteNitro Well...I don't know if this is relevant or helpful...(jeez - great opening statement )....
WhiteNitro but we just had an Open Source and Education conference here in Vermont
WhiteNitro and when we suggested having an art contest for next year's conference of student created art using FOSS tools
WhiteNitro it got a good reception and a request for a CD 'with all the FOSS art tools'
WhiteNitro So I will be creating that in the near future
rdieter that's a good idea.
WhiteNitro I would be terrific to have it be a live Fedora CD/DVD if possible
sdziallas so we would have an art specific spin containing e.g. inkscape, blender, gimp, and so on?
rdieter we're veering into something less edu'y and more art'y, but I still think it's something to try.
* sdziallas found this one in the wiki
rdieter sdziallas: sounds like it.
sdziallas http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/ArtTeamProjects/FedoraArtStudio
WhiteNitro If teachers are requesting it for use during school time.....quacks like duck...
WhiteNitro If it helps, here is the conf. info: http://www.ncose.org/node/11
rdieter WhiteNitro: does the existing FedorArtStudio sound like something that would might work?
WhiteNitro At a first glance, yes - though it may need lower end stuff as well (tuxpaint) for K-2 groups
* sdziallas has a look at the kickstart file
sdziallas this one is about 1,1 GB
WhiteNitro Speaking of kids, I have to go pick up mine at school. I will watch the Fedora eduction mailing list for next steps.
rdieter WhiteNitro: thx
sdziallas  ;) yeah... thx
WhiteNitro Enjoyed it - looking forward to next one
rdieter sdziallas: ok, I think we've identified a few concrete steps on how to move forward.
<-- WhiteNitro hat () beendet
rdieter 1. identify use-case
rdieter 2. identify spin-focus
rdieter 1, 2 will affect each other obviously.
sdziallas that's true
rdieter 3. spin size (cd size or not)
sdziallas 4. create kickstart and try to get it approved ?
sdziallas 5. release the spin and try to get as much feedback as possible ?
rdieter I'd say to 5 first.
rdieter don't wait/block on 4
rdieter well, the "get it approved" part anyway
rdieter I can help produce/host the sucker... I think Axel had offered help on list here too.
sdziallas okay. this sounds really good
rdieter I'm not familiar with out distro's edu efforts, like edubuntu, is that something worth looking closer at, maybe steal... err... borrow ideas?
sdziallas  ;) well, i was some time ago involved in the opensuse edu-efforts (not for along time)
sdziallas they are only producing a repo or a cd with packages on it
sdziallas but they have some interesting web and wiki pages
sdziallas e.g. they have also lists of desktop / server edu apps
sdziallas http://opensuse-education.org/
sdziallas http://en.opensuse.org/Education
rdieter oh, and lest we forget, the other obvious spin use-case/focus would be as a delivery mechanism to ltsp-related stuff, but we'll likely have to wait on warren to fill in the details on how best to accomplish that.
warren It isn't ready and thus would be too confusing at this point.
sdziallas agreed. i think at least, we might include the possibility to sign on to a K12linux terminal server
warren plus you have the problem of installing the chroot which is a bit of a unique problem
sdziallas hmmm...
rdieter warren: ok, I guess I had naively hoped a livecd could serve as ltsp client somehow maybe. sorta kinda.
warren rdieter: well, that part is easy
warren rdieter: I'm was thinking live LTSP server that has the client chroot as well
rdieter cool, but harder.
warren not exactly
rdieter ok, just cool then. :)
warren the code already exists for this, but not exactly what you describe
warren let me clarify a bit
warren LTSP in Fedora 9 is pretty functional now
warren but I don't consider it production ready yet
rdieter sdziallas: definitely put some of those related edu-sites/links on our Sig/EDU wiki too.
warren we're still missing a few things that Ubuntu has and we have almost no documentation
sdziallas rdieter: i'm going to :)
warren This means a Linux sysadmin can today deploy a pretty functional LTSP server to serve thin clients
warren but it isn't entirely easy for end-users yet
rdieter warren: thx, do you see anything else between edu-sig and ltsp-bits that can be mutually beneficial (ie, what can the edu-sig do help you, and maybe vice-versa)
warren yes
warren I don't have time to define the set of 'edu' apps to install onto the LTSP LiveUSB/LiveDVD
warren and I seriously need more people to actually TRY my stuff and post stuff to the list
warren help me write documentation
warren I'm getting almost no feedback despite how functional it has become in Fedora 9
rdieter if you build it, they will come (hopefully).
sdziallas concerning the set of edu-apps: this shouldn't be a large problem, right? we might clean up the application list and order them and so on...
warren rdieter: if you're referring to a "spin" or live spin, that might be a misunderstanding
warren while I do plan on making a live LTSP
warren Ubuntu actually is moving away from making it a separate spin
warren instead just making it stuff you install on top of standard Ubuntu
warren This is the direction Eric Harrison wanted to go years ago
warren and that was largely our goal in merging LTSP into Fedora
warren live LTSP server is just a convenient way to demo or install it
warren "clean up application list"
warren do you mean to define your own comps group?
sdziallas this would depend on how we are proceeding concerning the edu-spins
sdziallas if we would create different spins for different domains (maths / chemistry / art / ...), this might be useful
rdieter comps groups for various edu domains would be useful, especfially if we had spins associated with them. :)
warren if you do different domains then you are treading onto redundancy with other sigs
rdieter or not, the groups could still be useful.
warren also keep in mind that a comps group can have both default and optional
warren default = installed by default
warren optional = easy to find in the package group in the GUI
rdieter warren: nod, examples of other sigs to watch out for (redundancy)?
rdieter Astronomy?
sdziallas well... art (we had the link there)
warren well, it isn't an exact 1 to 1 match
sdziallas the astronomy guys are preparing their own spin, too
warren and using the distinction between default and optional you can make this pretty useful
warren decide now what you will make default?
warren default should be more generally useful
warren perhaps K12 target for default, and everything else possibly educational for optional?
rdieter yeah, the more we talk about it, EDU-SIG is a good umbrella, but way too broad to speak in terms of any single spin or focus.
rdieter K12 is an excellent place to start.
sdziallas true! +1
sdziallas so we would first order somehow the different apps, get those who are for k12 and create than different categories for the domains?!
warren I have no chance of fitting a useful Live LTSP server on a CD
warren So I'll have room to pull in whatever edu-sig picks for default desktop apps
warren sdziallas: for your spin were you thinking live CD or traditional installable?
rdieter sdziallas: yep.
warren because LiveCD's can't live openoffice
warren err
warren can't fit
rdieter warren: livecd, atm anyway
sdziallas that's true... I would really like to get openoffice in, but is just not possible to get it on a cd
sdziallas and it does not makes sense to create a dvd, if you're creating one with the default edu-apps and k12ltsp
sdziallas so we are going to stick to the cd, right? :)
warren eh
warren you wont fit on a CD
rdieter sdziallas: focussing on categorizing apps, making groups sounds like a good forward right now.
rdieter a good *way* forward even.
sdziallas rdieter: +100
warren rdieter: yes, good idea
sdziallas warren: then, we are going to use abiword or kword (depending on the desktop environment)
* rdieter goes to look at comps now.
gregdek (Sorry, /me got called into another meeting)
* sdziallas has again a look at the app list in the wiki
rdieter ok, there is an education group already, but it's way way small as-is.
sdziallas i think there are also some interesting packages in the scientific group...
rdieter right, we can help sort that out, make sure things are categorized better, possibly move some, possibly list some apps in multiple groups. (but that has it's own down-sides)
sdziallas +1 again ;)
rdieter OK, I'll work on reviewing comps, and make some suggestions and ask for feedback on list.
sdziallas I'm going to order the list in the wiki somehow, ok?
rdieter sdziallas: please do, that'll make my job easier. :)
sdziallas work in progress ;)
warren so yeah, start out by group defining
warren I'll have a live LTSP server test spin during the next few weeks
sdziallas cool.
warren the key reason for doing live LTSP server is because people without internet or slow internet especially in developing countries can't use the standard ltsp-build-client to install their chroot
warren it needs to download ~330+ packages
sdziallas ups... sounds logic.
sdziallas i still remember the times when i had a 56k modem - not so much time ago
sdziallas so a live media seems to be a pretty good solution for such a problem
rdieter I try not to remember... :)
sdziallas agreed. we shouldn't remember that...
sdziallas so since we now have something like a plan, do you think we should close this meeting and talk again in some days / weeks?
rdieter nod, I'm out of ideas for today anyway.
sdziallas me too
sdziallas okay. so, i'm going to keep the log and prepare some posts to the wiki and the mailing list
sdziallas thank you everybody!
sdziallas any plans for next meeting? is this time okay?
sdziallas or should we just discuss this on the list?
rdieter this time works for me.
sdziallas ok...
* sdziallas won't be here next friday, but lets talk about this on the list, okay?
rdieter ok
sdziallas ok... so again thx, and cu everybody
sdziallas meeting adjourned :P

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