From Fedora Project Wiki

< I18N‎ | Meetings

2009-05-26 0500 UTC on #fedora-meeting at Freenode



  • Features/YumLangpackPlugin discussion
  • imsettings for minimal desktops needs more thought
  • Ding discussed taxonomy for general kbd layout types (qwerty, etc)
  • ivazquez asked about ibus support for sugar frame


juhp welcome to the Fedora I18n biweekly meeting May 26 15:00
paragn hi May 26 15:00
juhp hi paragn May 26 15:01
juhp who's here? May 26 15:01
tagoh3 hi May 26 15:01
*juhp gets out his ping ray May 26 15:01
*ianweller hands juhp the packet cartridges May 26 15:02
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juhp ping pravins, dychen_, phuang_ May 26 15:03
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phuang_ hi May 26 15:03
pravins hi juhp May 26 15:03
juhp ianweller: :) May 26 15:03
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dychen_ hi jensp May 26 15:03
juhp okay I think we have some people here anyway so maybe can get started May 26 15:03
jni hi jensp May 26 15:04
juhp hi guys May 26 15:04
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juhp I18N/Meetings/2009-05-26 May 26 15:04
juhp quite a full agenda today but will try to not go on too long May 26 15:04
juhp okay just checking the minutes from the last meeting May 26 15:05
juhp I think the action items there should be ok now May 26 15:05
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juhp paragn: relnotes were updated I suppose? May 26 15:06
juhp rahulb may not be here yet May 26 15:06
juhp # Test_Days:IBus debrief May 26 15:06
juhp ok we already had some discussion about this in the ibus project meeting last week May 26 15:07
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juhp the ibus test day was very useful to getting more exposure to ibus from native users - specially the l10n team May 26 15:07
juhp and we had a bunch of bugs/rfe's filed which was very good May 26 15:08
juhp if we had a second chance we can probably polish and sharpen the testcases further and raise the bar a bit more :) May 26 15:09
juhp anyone have any comments or reflections on it? May 26 15:10
juhp I wish we had more non-Asian testers too but we did stir a few conversations on the mailing-lists from some of them at least May 26 15:10
phuang_ when f11 is released, I think we will get more bug reports. May 26 15:10
juhp phuang_: yeah I guess so May 26 15:11
juhp it will be a busy time - it is always hard when changing the input-method system May 26 15:11
phuang_ :) May 26 15:11
juhp reminds me though that scim seems to stop working for me when I upgrade from f10 to f11 May 26 15:11
juhp tagoh3: any thoughts on that? May 26 15:12
phuang_ juhp, it can works on my box May 26 15:12
tagoh3 juhp: can't say anything without more details though, scim has a potential problem to bring it up successfully at least. May 26 15:13
juhp phuang_: hmm ok - I should test more perhaps - I have seen it twice now - i had to turn off in imsettings and restart desktop to get it working for me May 26 15:13
juhp tagoh3: so what changed for scim? May 26 15:13
juhp tagoh3: ok I can try more with a fresh upgrade later - so it works for you? May 26 15:14
tagoh3 no it originally has.. as I suggested before, it may be a good idea to have any features/options to replace the running process perhaps. May 26 15:14
tagoh3 instead of just fail May 26 15:15
juhp tagoh3: feature in im-chooser? May 26 15:15
juhp ok May 26 15:15
tagoh3 in scim like other window manager do with --replace say May 26 15:15
juhp tagoh3: if it is reproducible it seems pretty serious to me anyway May 26 15:15
juhp hmm May 26 15:15
juhp tagoh3: is it to do with later startup of imsettings? May 26 15:16
tagoh3 or scim should kills all of processes brought up if something failed May 26 15:16
juhp I am still a puzzled - I guess no major changes in this area on the scim side? May 26 15:16
juhp hmm May 26 15:16
juhp or we should just move people to ibus? May 26 15:16
tagoh3 juhp: not sure if it's same issue but you can see similar fails if you run scim twice on different terminal or so. May 26 15:17
juhp I guess it is too to do anything about it for GA but if we can fix it early in updates would be good IMO May 26 15:17
juhp hmm May 26 15:17
juhp s/too/too late/ May 26 15:18
tagoh3 i.e. scim always fails if any process keeps running. May 26 15:18
juhp tagoh3: well it may be scim's fault but guess it is being triggered by imsettings, no? May 26 15:18
tagoh3 and remember scim is brought up from immodule too May 26 15:18
tagoh3 juhp: no way of killing them May 26 15:19
juhp okay anyway guess we need to test more May 26 15:19
juhp tagoh3: ok but f10 was ok... May 26 15:19
juhp ok we better move on May 26 15:19
tagoh3 imsettings only keeps the main process on track and "scim" itself fails so imsettings decides no IM running. May 26 15:20
juhp aha May 26 15:20
juhp tagoh3: so f10 imsettings didn't care? May 26 15:20
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tagoh3 basically yes May 26 15:20
juhp ok May 26 15:20
juhp I'll try and play around it a bit more May 26 15:21
tagoh3 no design changed at all May 26 15:21
juhp the idea of patching scim is not too attractive though May 26 15:21
juhp I am curious if just restarting desktop would help May 26 15:21
juhp tagoh3: maybe imsettings should ignore fail scim then ;) May 26 15:22
juhp # F12 Features May 26 15:22
tagoh3 this may be not the case for scim only but if IM has multiple processes running, any processes in IM should takes care of children as well May 26 15:22
juhp I guess the f12 process is already well open and underway May 26 15:22
juhp tagoh3: ok May 26 15:22
juhp f12 feature process * May 26 15:23
juhp is anyone planning any F12 features May 26 15:23
juhp I wrote an initial one for Yum Langpack plugins on Friday May 26 15:23
juhp comments and feedback welcome May 26 15:23
juhp I will do a blog about later this week to give it more eyes though it was already discussed a bit on f-d-l a while back May 26 15:24
juhp I hope it is still a good idea at least until we have something better than comps May 26 15:25
juhp Features/YumLangpackPlugin May 26 15:25
juhp there are couple of tools that might be useful to have May 26 15:26
juhp font list preferences and locale customization come to mind May 26 15:27
juhp any others? May 26 15:27
paragan juhp, but we can use yum to install language support and that group pulls translations also as per written in comps right? May 26 15:28
juhp paragan: yeah we can May 26 15:28
juhp paragan: my feature would be to do that automatically without the extra step May 26 15:29
juhp or even having to know about that May 26 15:29
paragan aha ok May 26 15:30
juhp one problem is how to do for Live I guess May 26 15:30
juhp so far I thought of using meta-packages but maybe a config tool would be better May 26 15:31
tagoh3 wouldn't it rather be a compose issue? May 26 15:32
juhp tagoh3: I mean how to enable it from a Live install May 26 15:32
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tagoh3 juhp: you don't expect to have them installed in Live image by default? May 26 15:33
juhp maybe meta-packages doesn't really buy one anything except needing to rebuild the metapkg every time there is a new lang... May 26 15:33
juhp tagoh3: them? :) May 26 15:33
tagoh3 langpack packages May 26 15:34
juhp tagoh3: no May 26 15:34
juhp well not all anyway May 26 15:34
juhp and besides most of the packages with lang packs are not on Live anyway May 26 15:35
juhp maybe except firefox ;-P May 26 15:35
juhp and maybe some others I am forgetting :) May 26 15:35
tagoh3 is it new? if no langpack installed but trying to upgrade, doesn't this plugin help in this case? May 26 15:35
juhp that's another question what to do for upgrades May 26 15:36
juhp I have been thinking maybe only to apply for installation of new packages May 26 15:37
juhp I mean someone might not want a particular langpack and uninstall May 26 15:37
juhp unless one uses a blacklist or something May 26 15:37
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juhp tagoh3: but yes it could May 26 15:37
juhp I think the main hurdle will be to get the plugin into the default install anyway May 26 15:39
juhp not even sure if we install the package for os upgrades it would not hurt I guess May 26 15:39
juhp (and to have to enabled by default) May 26 15:39
juhp anyway will be interesting to see how far it goes - I should get some feedback skvidal too May 26 15:40
jni junp, what about remove using Yum Langpack ? May 26 15:40
juhp jni: I think that case should be easier assuming the langpack depends on the base package May 26 15:41
juhp jni: or you mean a while to remove all langpacks for a lang? May 26 15:41
juhp while-?way May 26 15:41
juhp -> May 26 15:41
jni juhp, I mean remove all langpacks for a specific lang. May 26 15:42
juhp aha May 26 15:42
juhp jni: so for that the meta-package would be better perhaps May 26 15:42
juhp jni: I guess it could be done - it might already be there notting's initial version need to check May 26 15:43
juhp anyway without metapackages need to think about the configuration mechanism May 26 15:44
jni juhp, OK. May 26 15:44
juhp # Imsettings for other window managers [dchen] May 26 15:44
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juhp I think dychen_ wanted to talk about how to start IM for minimal desktop without desktop autostart May 26 15:45
tagoh3 aha May 26 15:45
juhp tagoh3, phuang_: any thoughts on that? May 26 15:45
tagoh3 juhp: ah, no suggestions for that? ;) May 26 15:45
dychen_ Hi, some user require that ibus can be start up with independent WM like fluxbox May 26 15:45
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dychen_ tagoh3: Shall we asked them to start imsetting? Or May 26 15:46
phuang_ dychen_, fluxbox session has dbus session bus? May 26 15:46
juhp I guess users can just enable imsettings or IM in their ~/.xsession file or individual wm's do (or reinvent?) something, but is there anything we can to help make life easier for such power uers? May 26 15:46
juhp users May 26 15:46
dychen_ I come up with a small script that if it is not from GNOME, KDE, LXDE, or XFCE4, it launch IBUS? May 26 15:47
dychen_ phuang_: No idea. May 26 15:47
tagoh3 patching other WMs out to support xdg autostart would be the right way to go IMHO. May 26 15:47
juhp phuang_: probably not May 26 15:47
juhp tagoh3: ok - I guess reason they avoid that is that they may not want panel, etc May 26 15:48
phuang_ I think in that case, user should modify the init scrip by self. WM is just a window manager, not a session manager May 26 15:48
dychen_ tagoh3: And if they really want a minimal WM which omit the xdg autostart... May 26 15:48
dychen_ phuang_: That's true.. May 26 15:49
juhp phuang_: so just imsettings-start ibus ? May 26 15:50
phuang_ In the customized X session, user should consider all by self. May 26 15:50
juhp tagoh3: actually where does ( come in now? May 26 15:50
tagoh3 juhp: it should works on Fedora at least so that all of desktop sessions are under the dbus session May 26 15:50
juhp phuang_: what if there are not using custom scripts? May 26 15:51
phuang_ juhp, I am not sure. if no dbus session bus, maybe imsettings can not work May 26 15:51
juhp okay May 26 15:51
juhp tagoh3: I see May 26 15:51
juhp true May 26 15:51
dychen_ phuang_: manually run ibus-daemon works in fluxbox at least. May 26 15:51
phuang_ dychen_, yeah May 26 15:51
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tagoh3 juhp: right now just sets the necessary env var or bring the process up as older way if no dbus session is available. May 26 15:52
phuang_ but ibus-daemon in xinit script, and set some env by self May 26 15:52
juhp tagoh3: aha May 26 15:52
dychen_ phuang_: May 26 15:52
dychen_ phuang_: I already told him so. May 26 15:52
juhp okay we better move on? May 26 15:53
dychen_ So we just tell him WONTFIX? May 26 15:53
tagoh3 juhp: and if someone has DISABLE_IMSETTINGS explicitly - KDE does it now May 26 15:53
juhp aha May 26 15:54
dychen_ Oops, tagoh3, so it actually works for those WMs? May 26 15:55
juhp dychen_: I guess imsettings is only available on fedora? May 26 15:55
juhp dychen_: it might well do May 26 15:55
dychen_ juhp: Let them port imsetting from Fedora . :-P May 26 15:55
juhp :) May 26 15:55
juhp dychen_: if they have then imsettings-start ibus may work May 26 15:56
phuang_ dychen_, yeah. btw, fedora and debian have different X init scripts. We can not suit all of them. The init script should be maintained by different Linux distribution package maintainers or users self. May 26 15:56
juhp phuang_: sure May 26 15:56
juhp I am mainly thinking about fedora here May 26 15:56
dychen_ phuang_: Ok. May 26 15:56
juhp # KeyboardLayoutProposal [dchen] May 26 15:56
juhp I heard there was a long thread about flags on f-d-l? May 26 15:57
juhp which I didn't read ;o) May 26 15:57
juhp dychen_: can you give us some background? May 26 15:57
paragn yes 2-3 threads May 26 15:57
tagoh3 just read a wiki only :) May 26 15:57
juhp (or others) May 26 15:57
juhp s/others/anyone/ May 26 15:58
dychen_ It was about flags, but it is not that relevant to this proposal. May 26 15:58
juhp tagoh3: about the flag guideline? May 26 15:58
juhp dychen_: ok May 26 15:58
tagoh3 juhp: right May 26 15:58
paragn Package_Maintainers_Flags_Policy May 26 15:58
juhp anyway no flags sounds good to me :) May 26 15:58
dychen_ As an IM developer, I which to let my im suitable for all kind of keyboard, May 26 15:59
dychen_ Unfortunately, the key layout setting is a mess to me. May 26 15:59
dychen_ The country-oriented taxonomy produces redundancy, and may involve sensitive political issues. May 26 16:00
dychen_ KeyboardLayoutProposal May 26 16:01
juhp dychen_: to clarify your proposal is about categories/naming of kbd layouts? May 26 16:01
dychen_ juhp: Yes May 26 16:01
juhp dychen_: so how to use this taxonomy? :) May 26 16:01
dychen_ juhp, in GDM keylayout, GNOME/KDE key layout setting. May 26 16:02
juhp dychen_: so you're categorizing by placement of alphanum keys only? May 26 16:02
juhp aha May 26 16:02
juhp I see May 26 16:02
juhp dychen_: what about non-technical users? May 26 16:03
dychen_ juhp: alphabets, per se. May 26 16:03
dychen_ Ask them to see their keyboard. May 26 16:03
juhp aha May 26 16:03
juhp ok May 26 16:03
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dychen_ Actually default layout can be derived from locale. May 26 16:04
juhp well I agree the current number of kbds listed is rather overwhelming May 26 16:04
sflanigan As long as they get a sensible default layout from the locale, I think it should work well. May 26 16:04
juhp dychen_: I guess it already is from anaconda? May 26 16:04
dychen_ juhp, it is? May 26 16:05
juhp or is it the other way? May 26 16:05
dychen_ I'm not anconda guy... May 26 16:05
dychen_ And I cannot even spell it correctly. :-P May 26 16:06
juhp I am a little unsure but thought install lang sets the default choice of kbd May 26 16:06
juhp at least for GUI perhaps May 26 16:07
juhp maybe not TUI May 26 16:07
juhp dychen_: do you want to suggest it to gnome? May 26 16:07
juhp dychen_: I am not sure on the distribution of numbers though May 26 16:08
dychen_ juhp, do you think it need more polish ? May 26 16:08
juhp maybe most are qwerty anyway? May 26 16:08
dychen_ juhp: That is kinda my point. May 26 16:08
juhp dychen_: how about a blog post say to hear more opinions - I am not sure yet :) May 26 16:08
juhp dychen_: to make it easy to find non-qwerty? May 26 16:09
dychen_ juhp, will do. May 26 16:09
juhp dychen_: I think MS uses tree for kbd/IM something like that /might/ be easier to navigate though I always found it a little ugly visually May 26 16:10
juhp by lang May 26 16:10
juhp but yeah it also involves a lot of duplication May 26 16:10
dychen_ By lang is slightly better than countries.. May 26 16:10
juhp dychen_: cool May 26 16:10
juhp (oh might be country ;o) May 26 16:11
*tagoh3 isn't fully understanding this topic May 26 16:11
dychen_ But not as good as keyboard layout themselves. May 26 16:11
juhp tagoh3: I think the idea is to improve the current linear list of kbds in gdm say May 26 16:11
sflanigan As a Dvorak user, I approve this idea! :-) May 26 16:12
dychen_ tagoh3: Just consider it as new interface of keyboard layout selection. May 26 16:12
tagoh3 is there any much cases that need to modify the keyboard layout? thought X works fine to set up the default keyboard May 26 16:12
*juhp also finds it a little a annoying that gdm takes so long to list langs/kdb's May 26 16:12
juhp of course main problem is most people don't even see the settings ;o) May 26 16:13
juhp sflanigan: ;) May 26 16:13
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dychen_ tagoh3: I guess some user do need this kind of setting, as both KDE and GNOME have the indicator on their notification bar. May 26 16:13
juhp tagoh3: Live? May 26 16:13
tagoh3 juhp: I mean X do the right thing without the explicit sections for keyboard May 26 16:14
paragn juhp, I guess thats because we have increased list of locales and from gdm-language.c it needs to construct language name by checking if translations are available for that language or not. Not sure though the real reason May 26 16:14
juhp dychen_: gnome-keyboard-properties(?) may have a better navigation iirc May 26 16:14
tagoh3 in xorg.conf May 26 16:14
juhp paragn: yeah May 26 16:14
juhp tagoh3: right May 26 16:15
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juhp tagoh3: and ? :) May 26 16:15
juhp dychen_: anyway thanks for the discussion point May 26 16:16
juhp I think we are a bit over time so should probably close off the meeting soon May 26 16:16
tagoh3 juhp: dunno if there are any reasons wants to use any other layout than detected one. if something is wrong there, it should be fixed rather than having such interface. May 26 16:17
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juhp tagoh3: well they might want to select another kbd in anaconda, Live or for xkb switching in desktop - I think this discussion is just about config UI May 26 16:18
dychen_ sflanigan: Is your layout successfully detected in text mode? May 26 16:18
sflanigan I think I had to select it from a list. I remember wondering what the difference was between some of the Dvorak versions. May 26 16:19
juhp of course if it was possible to detect kbds automatically problem would be solved... :) May 26 16:19
tagoh3 juhp: ideally it should be gone for ordinary users IMHO. May 26 16:19
dychen_ tagoh3: And I think laptop users might use 2 keyboard, built-in and external. May 26 16:19
juhp we're still in the 20th there on PCs unfortunately May 26 16:20
sflanigan I'm sure it would be, but it would take too much typing in some cases! May 26 16:20
phuang_ dychen_, I think you should set keyboard for text mode. in /etc/sysconfig/keyboard May 26 16:20
juhp tagoh3: gone? May 26 16:20
dychen_ phuang_: How about the people who use 2 keyboards? May 26 16:21
juhp (20th century) May 26 16:21
tagoh3 juhp: configuration UI. better improving auto-detection :) May 26 16:21
juhp tagoh3: that requires hw changes though AFAIK May 26 16:21
juhp and PS/2 will never be supported I guess May 26 16:21
tagoh3 recent hardware should works enough May 26 16:22
phuang_ dychen_, it is a problem May 26 16:22
juhp tagoh3: ok May 26 16:23
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phuang_ dychen_, maybe the keyboard driver handle the different layouts. May 26 16:23
juhp dychen_: that is good point May 26 16:23
dychen_ sflanigan: Is that in your case? May 26 16:23
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juhp - any other topics before we close the meeting? May 26 16:24
ivazquez Has anyone had a chance to think over my proposal any further? May 26 16:24
sflanigan dychen_, not sure what you mean. I'll talk later. May 26 16:24
juhp ivazquez: olpc? May 26 16:25
ivazquez ibus in sugar. May 26 16:25
dychen_ sflanigan: what's layout of your laptop? May 26 16:25
juhp sflanigan: your laptop has a US kbd I guess? May 26 16:25
dychen_ s/layout/the layout/ May 26 16:25
sflanigan Physically, it's just a QWERTY keyboard, but I've told Fedora I want Dvorak. May 26 16:25
juhp phuang_: any thoughts on ibus for sugar May 26 16:25
juhp ivazquez: does ibus work currently? May 26 16:26
ivazquez I don't know, but I don't see why not. May 26 16:26
phuang_ juhp, I am not familiar with sugar. May 26 16:26
dychen_ So autodetection does not always works. May 26 16:26
ivazquez SCIM supposedly works. May 26 16:26
juhp ivazquez: I think it worked once when I tested it May 26 16:26
juhp yeah May 26 16:26
ivazquez ibus is a perfect match for sugar though. May 26 16:27
sflanigan dychen_, the only way to detect the fact that I prefer Dvorak is for me to do a typing test, or simply ask me. You can't just ask the keyboard hardware. May 26 16:27
juhp ivazquez: I guess it could be done but quite a lot of work for small gain? May 26 16:27
ivazquez I don't think it would be that much work. May 26 16:27
juhp phuang_: I think ivazquez was suggesting to have a ibus applet in sugar? May 26 16:27
juhp ivazquez: ok May 26 16:27
ivazquez sugar is already based on GTK+ and Python. May 26 16:28
ivazquez It's just a matter of putting the icons in the correct places. May 26 16:28
juhp sflanigan: but if you use your laptop kbd now it would be using dvorak layout, no? May 26 16:28
dychen_ sflanigan, tagoh3, phuang_: That's why we still need an interface for user to select their keyboard layouot. May 26 16:28
juhp ivazquez: ok - does it have a notification area kind of thing? May 26 16:28
ivazquez It has the frame. May 26 16:29
juhp okay May 26 16:29
ivazquez So, yes. May 26 16:29
dychen_ At least for the first time. May 26 16:29
sflanigan juhp, that's right. I don't mind, personally, but it would be nice to configure separately. May 26 16:29
juhp so we need ibus-sugar or sugar-ibus? May 26 16:29
juhp sflanigan: right May 26 16:29
ivazquez I'm thinking the latter. May 26 16:29
juhp aha May 26 16:29
ivazquez It would be an ibus addon to sugar. May 26 16:29
ivazquez May 26 16:29
juhp ivazquez: sounds like a nice little project May 26 16:30
juhp ivazquez: where is the best place to learn how to use the frame? May 26 16:30
tagoh3 instead of panel? May 26 16:30
ivazquez The code for frame icons, control panel, and keybindings are readily available. May 26 16:30
juhp ok May 26 16:30
ivazquez Let me get the URLs... May 26 16:30
ivazquez May 26 16:30
juhp ivazquez: what about NM etc - do they use it too? May 26 16:31
ivazquez May 26 16:31
ivazquez May 26 16:31
phuang_ I think I need do some investigation on sugar at first May 26 16:31
ivazquez No. sugar does all sorts of extra magic to not need NM to show up on the panel. May 26 16:31
ivazquez Specifically, the global view lets you select a mesh or AP in range, and enter a password. May 26 16:31
juhp ok yeah May 26 16:32
juhp cool May 26 16:32
juhp ivazquez: thanks for the suggestion :) May 26 16:32
ivazquez I'm willing to help out if anyone needs it. May 26 16:33
juhp great May 26 16:33
juhp ivazquez: are you working on sugar too these days? May 26 16:33
ivazquez Not so much. May 26 16:34
ivazquez I'm almost exclusively dealing with Transifex. May 26 16:34
juhp ok I think we better stop the meeting about here - rather longer than I had expected :) May 26 16:34
ivazquez I do some OLPC testing though. May 26 16:34
juhp ivazquez: aha May 26 16:34
juhp cool May 26 16:34
juhp so if nothing else let's end the meeting May 26 16:35
juhp thank you very much everyone! May 26 16:35
juhp next meeting is in two weeks: 9 June May 26 16:36
juhp # meeting closed May 26 16:36

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